Topic: Monday Rant: Mirror, Mirror on the Door

[Northernridge]

^^Im not sure of the law, is a cyclist allowed to go between you and the curb if you are making a right hand turn or do they have to wait beside you. Ive had a few sneak in like that and then proceed to go straight....kinda dangerous.

The law is clear, cyclists are supposed to follow the same rules as cars. So no, cyclists are never allowed to drive between you and the curb unless they are in a bike lane. I think.

[X-Traction]

^^Im not sure of the law, is a cyclist allowed to go between you and the curb if you are making a right hand turn or do they have to wait beside you. Ive had a few sneak in like that and then proceed to go straight....kinda dangerous.

It depends on the jurisdiction.  In many places, the traffice laws specifically state a cyclist is allowed to pass on the right if there is room to do so and it can be done in a safe manner.

I'd say that any cyclist passing on the right when the motorist to their left is in the act of turning right, is not proceeding in a safe manner and obviously there's not room to do so.

(I once got "doored" despite knowing the risk and proceeding cautiously on my bike past a long line of cars stopped at a light.  I assumed I'd be found 50% at fault.  After carefully examining the circumstances and visiting the accident site, the insurer found the motorist (actually their passenger) was completely at fault.  Contributing circumstances were that the motorist had just passed me so they should have been aware of my existence, and had not pulled over to the curb to disgorge their passenger.  The motorists were quite apologetic and offered me a ride.)

[tortoise]

The article also falls short in that it does not address added convex mirrors and the fact the passenger side mirror is universally convex these days.

That's a thing?  I haven't see that.

I do like the convex mirrors that come standard on a Ford Escape (previous model). The problem with adding them the to some mirrors is that the mirror is often so small that you end up taking away a significant portion of your field of view.

[Fobroader]

^^Im not sure of the law, is a cyclist allowed to go between you and the curb if you are making a right hand turn or do they have to wait beside you. Ive had a few sneak in like that and then proceed to go straight....kinda dangerous.

It depends on the jurisdiction.  In many places, the traffice laws specifically state a cyclist is allowed to pass on the right if there is room to do so and it can be done in a safe manner.

(I once got "doored" despite knowing the risk and proceeding cautiously on my bike past a long line of cars stopped at a light.  I assumed I'd be found 50% at fault.  After carefully examining the circumstances and visiting the accident site, the insurer found the motorist (actually their passenger) was completely at fault.  Contributing circumstances were that the motorist had just passed me so they should have been aware of my existence, and had not pulled over to the curb to disgorge their passenger.  The motorists were quite apologetic and offered me a ride.)

Hmmm....I thought if you were at a light or stop everyone had to wait their turn. If some guy rides into the curb side of my vehicle while Im first in line waiting to turn right I dont think there could be any way to lay blame on anyone but the cyclist. If there was a bike lane, i could see that being the case. What do you mean "doored", someone popped their door open in your way? I would totally put the fault to the motorist then, its inexcusable to open your door without looking.

[X-Traction]

The article also falls short in that it does not address added convex mirrors and the fact the passenger side mirror is universally convex these days.

That's a thing?  I haven't see that.

I do like the convex mirrors that come standard on a Ford Escape (previous model). The problem with adding them the to some mirrors is that the mirror is often so small that you end up taking away a significant portion of your field of view.

You haven't seen the warning that "Objects in the mirror may appear smaller..." that passenger-side mirrors have had for, I don't know, at least 25 years?  The warning is because the mirrors are convex and so make the images smaller.

The 2010-2012 Escapes did indeed have nice wide-angle mirrors added to the top outside corners of their mirrors.  I'd switch them on my 2009 if the glass didn't cost $110+ each.

And the stick-on mirrors are available in a number of sizes and shapes these days to match your car mirrors.  The value of these things is perhaps proven by the fact every medium and heavy duty truck has them.

[X-Traction]

^^Im not sure of the law, is a cyclist allowed to go between you and the curb if you are making a right hand turn or do they have to wait beside you. Ive had a few sneak in like that and then proceed to go straight....kinda dangerous.

It depends on the jurisdiction.  In many places, the traffice laws specifically state a cyclist is allowed to pass on the right if there is room to do so and it can be done in a safe manner.

(I once got "doored" despite knowing the risk and proceeding cautiously on my bike past a long line of cars stopped at a light.  I assumed I'd be found 50% at fault.  After carefully examining the circumstances and visiting the accident site, the insurer found the motorist (actually their passenger) was completely at fault.  Contributing circumstances were that the motorist had just passed me so they should have been aware of my existence, and had not pulled over to the curb to disgorge their passenger.  The motorists were quite apologetic and offered me a ride.)

Hmmm....I thought if you were at a light or stop everyone had to wait their turn. If some guy rides into the curb side of my vehicle while Im first in line waiting to turn right I dont think there could be any way to lay blame on anyone but the cyclist. If there was a bike lane, i could see that being the case. What do you mean "doored", someone popped their door open in your way? I would totally put the fault to the motorist then, its inexcusable to open your door without looking.

Everyone is supposed to obey the speed limits also.  Some of those motorists arriving at stop lights before cyclists are there because the motorists were speeding and passed the cyclists without proper clearance. 

When I move up the queue on my bicycle, I never pass the car at the light and usually not even the second one.  That's because the motorist at the intersection expects to have a clear shot when the light turns green, and I don't want to interfere with that.  Everyone behind them is expecting to be delayed by traffic ahead of them, so my presence makes less of a difference.

Usually if a cyclist runs into the right side of a motorist turning right, the cyclist would be at fault.  But you'd agree motorists can make sudden and/or unsignalled right turns that could block an unwary cyclist with no time to evade the accident.  I'd rather not have the accident to begin with, so I avoid that situation.  Last time it happened to me was about 30 years ago when a motorist on a through street passed me, then without signalling and from the left side of their lane, suddenly braked and turned into a driveway.  Got me good.  The insurance company sided with me that time also.

In the other instance, being "doored" is as you described it.  It takes a deliberate thought to remember to look for cyclists before opening a car door, especially on the right side (and when someone's in a hurry to bail out of the car before the light turns green, as in my case.)

[tortoise]

You haven't seen the warning that "Objects in the mirror may appear smaller..." that passenger-side mirrors have had for, I don't know, at least 25 years?  The warning is because the mirrors are convex and so make the images smaller.

Huh.  I always thought it was due to the distance from the driver to the passenger mirror.

From Wikipedia:

The phrase "objects in (the) mirror are closer than they appear" is a safety warning that is required[1] to be engraved on passenger side mirrors of motor vehicles in the USA and Canada. Similar messages may appear in other countries, such as Korea and India. It is present because while these mirrors' convexity gives them a useful field of view, it also makes objects appear smaller.

[Fobroader]

^^Im not sure of the law, is a cyclist allowed to go between you and the curb if you are making a right hand turn or do they have to wait beside you. Ive had a few sneak in like that and then proceed to go straight....kinda dangerous.

It depends on the jurisdiction.  In many places, the traffice laws specifically state a cyclist is allowed to pass on the right if there is room to do so and it can be done in a safe manner.

(I once got "doored" despite knowing the risk and proceeding cautiously on my bike past a long line of cars stopped at a light.  I assumed I'd be found 50% at fault.  After carefully examining the circumstances and visiting the accident site, the insurer found the motorist (actually their passenger) was completely at fault.  Contributing circumstances were that the motorist had just passed me so they should have been aware of my existence, and had not pulled over to the curb to disgorge their passenger.  The motorists were quite apologetic and offered me a ride.)

Hmmm....I thought if you were at a light or stop everyone had to wait their turn. If some guy rides into the curb side of my vehicle while Im first in line waiting to turn right I dont think there could be any way to lay blame on anyone but the cyclist. If there was a bike lane, i could see that being the case. What do you mean "doored", someone popped their door open in your way? I would totally put the fault to the motorist then, its inexcusable to open your door without looking.

Everyone is supposed to obey the speed limits also.  Some of those motorists arriving at stop lights before cyclists are there because the motorists were speeding and passed the cyclists without proper clearance. 

When I move up the queue on my bicycle, I never pass the car at the light and usually not even the second one.  That's because the motorist at the intersection expects to have a clear shot when the light turns green, and I don't want to interfere with that.  Everyone behind them is expecting to be delayed by traffic ahead of them, so my presence makes less of a difference.

Usually if a cyclist runs into the right side of a motorist turning right, the cyclist would be at fault.  But you'd agree motorists can make sudden and/or unsignalled right turns that could block an unwary cyclist with no time to evade the accident.  I'd rather not have the accident to begin with, so I avoid that situation.  Last time it happened to me was about 30 years ago when a motorist on a through street passed me, then without signalling and from the left side of their lane, suddenly braked and turned into a driveway.  Got me good.  The insurance company sided with me that time also.

In the other instance, being "doored" is as you described it.  It takes a deliberate thought to remember to look for cyclists before opening a car door, especially on the right side (and when someone's in a hurry to bail out of the car before the light turns green, as in my case.)

The situation you describe, I would hope the insurance company sided with you. It would be the same thing if I sailed past someone car in my car, cut them off and slammed on my brakes to make the turn. Thats a dick move whatever youre driving. In most cases cyclists are quite conscientious of their surroundings, but Ive met some who ride like they are in a T-34 main battle tank and rely on drivers to have the reflexes to avoid them, those guys I hate. But then again, with the level of "drivers" we have in and around the Edmonton area, you have to drive, or ride, with the thought that everyone is a moron and is trying to kill you.

[SailFastSimon]

I use stick-on convex mirrors on the driver's outside mirror.  I also adjust that mirror depending on whether I'm doing city or highway driving.  For highway driving, I set the mirror to see more behind me than beside me.  Maybe partly because highway driving often involves the cargo area piled high with stuff.  If you're going to see very far behind you, you are going to see the rear flank of your vehicle.

My formative driving years were in a truck, so I never became dependent on the inside mirror.

Which raises a point others mentioned.  The article assumes the inside mirror is fully functional.  With cars having 5 headrests, and high back ends, not to mention the proportions and loading of suv's, bicycle racks etc, the inside mirror is often severely compromised, and the positioning described in the article may itself be outdated.

The article also falls short in that it does not address added convex mirrors and the fact the passenger side mirror is universally convex these days.  Is the writer unaware of these things?

Almost regardless of the circumstances, I check the right outside mirror when turning right to make sure there are no cyclists there.

Your point about the inside rearview mirror not always being usable is fair comment, and in that situation sure, you may need to adjust your mirrors a little further in (I guess this falls under the old rubric that "All generalizations are false.")

As for your comment regarding passenger-side mirrors being universally convex, and my apparent unawareness of this ... oh boy.

Sure, passenger side mirrors are slightly convex (slightly, because if you make them too convex the image becomes almost too small to be useful). But even the expanded field of view offered by a slightly convex mirror is made far less useful if the mirror is adjusted so that most of that view is the side of your own car.

All this was made quite clear in my original 15,000 word essay, but the editor said Internet attention spans simply aren't that long, and that the article was supposed to be a rant, not an essay.

He also didn't like my original title, which was "The advantage of adjusting your driver's side exterior mirror, and to a somewhat lesser extent your passenger's side exterior mirror, slightly further out in order to reduce blind spots." He said it wasn't catchy enough or something. Damn editors!

[rrocket]

Most people don't have their side views adjusted properly.  For the driver's side, you're supposed to lean all the way over until your head touches the window glass, then adjust side view.  For the passenger mirror, you're supposed to lean over as much as the safety belt allows, then adjust.

Here's a couple good videos that explain it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwzUE6PHk4U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da6BVQ1iERQ

[Ex-airbalancer]

Been driving a truck with a cap since since 1987, no accidents yet so I guess the mirrors are ok

[jyarkony]

I use stick-on convex mirrors on the driver's outside mirror.  I also adjust that mirror depending on whether I'm doing city or highway driving.  For highway driving, I set the mirror to see more behind me than beside me.  Maybe partly because highway driving often involves the cargo area piled high with stuff.  If you're going to see very far behind you, you are going to see the rear flank of your vehicle.

My formative driving years were in a truck, so I never became dependent on the inside mirror.

Which raises a point others mentioned.  The article assumes the inside mirror is fully functional.  With cars having 5 headrests, and high back ends, not to mention the proportions and loading of suv's, bicycle racks etc, the inside mirror is often severely compromised, and the positioning described in the article may itself be outdated.

The article also falls short in that it does not address added convex mirrors and the fact the passenger side mirror is universally convex these days.  Is the writer unaware of these things?

Almost regardless of the circumstances, I check the right outside mirror when turning right to make sure there are no cyclists there.

Your point about the inside rearview mirror not always being usable is fair comment, and in that situation sure, you may need to adjust your mirrors a little further in (I guess this falls under the old rubric that "All generalizations are false.")

As for your comment regarding passenger-side mirrors being universally convex, and my apparent unawareness of this ... oh boy.

Sure, passenger side mirrors are slightly convex (slightly, because if you make them too convex the image becomes almost too small to be useful). But even the expanded field of view offered by a slightly convex mirror is made far less useful if the mirror is adjusted so that most of that view is the side of your own car.

All this was made quite clear in my original 15,000 word essay, but the editor said Internet attention spans simply aren't that long, and that the article was supposed to be a rant, not an essay.

He also didn't like my original title, which was "The advantage of adjusting your driver's side exterior mirror, and to a somewhat lesser extent your passenger's side exterior mirror, slightly further out in order to reduce blind spots." He said it wasn't catchy enough or something. Damn editors!

oh sure, blame the editor...

[tenpenny]

but the editor said Internet attention spans simply aren't that long

I resent the implications of that....OH, LOOK, Courtney Stodden........

Sent from my Vic20 using Java Moose

[X-Traction]

I use stick-on convex mirrors on the driver's outside mirror.  I also adjust that mirror depending on whether I'm doing city or highway driving.  For highway driving, I set the mirror to see more behind me than beside me.  Maybe partly because highway driving often involves the cargo area piled high with stuff.  If you're going to see very far behind you, you are going to see the rear flank of your vehicle.

My formative driving years were in a truck, so I never became dependent on the inside mirror.

Which raises a point others mentioned.  The article assumes the inside mirror is fully functional.  With cars having 5 headrests, and high back ends, not to mention the proportions and loading of suv's, bicycle racks etc, the inside mirror is often severely compromised, and the positioning described in the article may itself be outdated.

The article also falls short in that it does not address added convex mirrors and the fact the passenger side mirror is universally convex these days.  Is the writer unaware of these things?

Almost regardless of the circumstances, I check the right outside mirror when turning right to make sure there are no cyclists there.

Your point about the inside rearview mirror not always being usable is fair comment, and in that situation sure, you may need to adjust your mirrors a little further in (I guess this falls under the old rubric that "All generalizations are false.")

As for your comment regarding passenger-side mirrors being universally convex, and my apparent unawareness of this ... oh boy.

Sure, passenger side mirrors are slightly convex (slightly, because if you make them too convex the image becomes almost too small to be useful). But even the expanded field of view offered by a slightly convex mirror is made far less useful if the mirror is adjusted so that most of that view is the side of your own car.

All this was made quite clear in my original 15,000 word essay, but the editor said Internet attention spans simply aren't that long, and that the article was supposed to be a rant, not an essay.

He also didn't like my original title, which was "The advantage of adjusting your driver's side exterior mirror, and to a somewhat lesser extent your passenger's side exterior mirror, slightly further out in order to reduce blind spots." He said it wasn't catchy enough or something. Damn editors!

I understand and accept your explanation.  I've written a few things myself and have had the same frustrations resulting from editors doing what they genuinely feel they must do.

[MJMontreal]

Cyclists do lots of illegal things (as do drivers), but I'd still rather see them coming and avoid being involved in an accident where the likelihood of bodily harm is high. Whether it was their fault or not, it would still make for a pretty crappy day.

[conwelpic]

I've owned vehicle for 50 years and did not realize till about two years ago that I had my mirrors in the wrong position (a tip from a suggestion on a forum that pointed to this error), now I've adjusted them to the correct position as stated in the article and videos
Here is Jim Kenzie's comment

http://www.motoringtv.com/jim-kenzie-proves-there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-blind-spot--p151683

It takes a bit of getting used to but it works great, now there is no more blind spots.

[aquadorhj]

installed "euro style" passenger side mirror with built-in convex portion at the end.


i still have the mirror adjusted like the article says (started when C&D did article on this about 10 years ago) and it's OK.

for $40, the mirror's working fine.

[JacobBlack]

You know how people asked for "memory mirrors"? I just found them on the Avalon I am driving today!
Well done Toyota!
Bravo

[my2cents]

While we're at it - let's talk about blind spots for big rigs.

An important part of mirror adjustment is being able to see the wheels on the trailer. Are they in the middle of the lane? Backing up. Not driving over the sidewalk etc.

For added vision - more mirrors.

I dread the coming reliance on a non-functioning flashing light to warn you not to change lanes.


http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/safevehicles-busesvans-sharetheroad-page2-417.htm

[tooscoops]

i really dislike those mirrors that tilt down in reverse... they show the curb sure, maybe i'm crazy, but i know where the curb is prior to reversing and i'd prefer to have the mirrors stay up to show proximity to whatever is beside you.

when i'm reversing, i do the ole arm over the passenger seat and back up... no need for cameras or mirrors. those are for backing into tight spots, lining up cars on a lot, garaging it, or hitching up something. at least to me.