Topic: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees

[blotter]

I struck an equally good deal once when I had the PPSA registration charge waived for a cash purchase.

nobody should be charged a PPSA registration fee if paying cash!!!

that fee is for the dealer to register the vehicle as collateral security when financing.
so if they're charging people that on cash purchases.... 
total cash grab.

[Ex-airbalancer]

they do have an eco tax... the gas guzzler tax... on an srt i think its 2 grand. bad enough the owners have to pay for way more gas (which is heavily taxed)... double dipping in my mind.kokl

I was think more of a tax for the electronics in the car, same tax as for tv's

[tooscoops]

like the tire ones?... basically having you pay upfront for the disposal later? yeah.. wouldn't be surprised if that started happening... then in 5 years, we'll all start getting pissed that it isn't just included in the price.... it all comes full circle!

and blotter... pretty sure he was being sarcastic speaking as if it was a used purchase that turbo had the ac "tax" waived... next we'll talk about the dealer locate fee for an in-stock unit...

[Triple Bob]

putting those companies back in bankruptcy proceedings for a fee that has been allowed for decades seems the wrong way to do it.

So you're saying that even though it may be wrong to charge it, it shouldn't change, because it's always been wrong?

[tooscoops]

i have never said it's wrong to charge it.. even the lawyers in this case don't say it's wrong to charge it... they say it's wrong to WORD it as a tax to the final customer and list it separately. every car costs the manufacturer and the dealer and extra 100 due to the ac tax that they have to pay for cars with air conditioning and both are obviously going to get it from the customer.

it doesn't change anything except for the wording.

so no.. i'm not saying what you posted above...

what i'm saying is that i can see how it shouldn't be listed as a tax on the final paperwork, but it doesn't change that it will be charged (though just as a part of the whole price), so why bother changing it?

[Triple Bob]

i have never said it's wrong to charge it.. even the lawyers in this case don't say it's wrong to charge it... they say it's wrong to WORD it as a tax to the final customer and list it separately. every car costs the manufacturer and the dealer and extra 100 due to the ac tax that they have to pay for cars with air conditioning and both are obviously going to get it from the customer.

it doesn't change anything except for the wording.

so no.. i'm not saying what you posted above...

what i'm saying is that i can see how it shouldn't be listed as a tax on the final paperwork, but it doesn't change that it will be charged (though just as a part of the whole price), so why bother changing it?

You're coming at this from a car dealer's point of view, nothing is going to change your mind, so I'm not going to debate it further.

[tooscoops]

i buy things as well... i like to think i come at every situation as a rational, reasonable person. while i apologize if i've come across as solely a salesperson, i try to explain things from my side of the desk in a way that should make it understood from the other side without any underhanded tactics or bias.

so what you'd like to see is what?... that the 100 just goes away after the manufacturer pays it? whether the invoice says 21500 and 100 ac tax, or 21600 doesn't change what the car cost. that 100 bucks isn't just going to be written off as a cost of doing business... it will be included as either a per vehicle cost or an overhead cost. this isn't like etching or admins where there is a point where this cost is added by someones choice to the vehicle. it's a tax.

while i like to go into every discussion with an open mind, you could be right that you won't change my mind on this matter. i'd enjoy hearing someone attempt, but i feel like this isn't something up for debate. 100 is charged on each car by the government to the manufacturer... both the manufacturer and the dealer are kind enough to only charge that 100 rather than attempt to increase profit based on it. seems to be open and shut to me.

[No H2O]

this isn't like etching or admins where there is a point where this cost is added by someones choice to the vehicle.

I'm glad you brought those two points up.

So how does some silly little sticker with a number on it that is attached to the body panels of my car help me exactly? I take it these are for identification purposes. So, if I am a car thief, I'll just peel them off and a bit of Goo-Gone and voila! So help me out here, what are those stickers that are worth maybe $5 supposed to do for me or prevent?

I remember buying a new car back in the 80s when admin fees simply did not exist. So how did dealers manage to sell cars back then without an admin fee.  Lets do some math here. Lets assume you pay some admin person a whopping $49.90 per hour. What do you do to process paperwork that takes 10 whopping hours...I mean paperwork isn't rocket science...and I know it does not take 10 hours. 

You know there is a reason why that shady trade, gets the respect it deserves.

[aquadorhj]

let's not pile on tooscoops.   


even though, obviously he's a dealer shill.. 





i get that there's less margin built in from the manufacturers and dealers are trying to pad their profits from all these BS fees.. to maintain their margins.



but from customer's perspective, they(dealers) should understand that they will lose customers in the long run by trying to pad their profits.   

what they SHOULD do is to make do with less profits per car sold just like the AVG JOES making less and less money every year.

it's hard for customers to feel sympathetic towards multimillion dollar shiny dealership buildings, getting a$$rap4d by BS fees.   

[goodsonr]

the problem with a manufacturers cost (as opposed to a "point-of-sale" tax) being broken-out explicitly and passed-off as a tax is -- where do you stop. 

The MSRP of the car is $5.00

But wait .. we had to pay for the steel .. that's an additional $3,000
But wait .. we had to pay for a gov't tariff on the steel -- that an additional $500.
But wait .. we had to pay a salary for somebody to put the bits together
But wait .. we have to pay government corporate taxes - but not much .. its Canada .. so thats only an additional $1.00.
etc. etc etc.

Total Cost = $30,000 .. but hey .. don't get upset with us ... the cost of the car is only $5.00

It is all a cost of making the car  -  and has nothing to do with a direct, point-of-sale consumer tax.  You want to give me the breakdown of why the car costs what it does .... sounds great.   Roll-it up as a cost of *making* the car and give me the selling price (preferably in a realistic MSRP - dreamer than I am).

So, going back to the earlier comment .. yeah .. it does make a difference how things are presented to the consumer, even if the amount of money leaving their pocket is the same.  I don't think that is irrational.  Nobody likes being lied-to, even if it doesn't change the outcome.

[tooscoops]

even in your description though, no one is lying are they? if so i just missed it. i do agree though and as i pointed out earlier, i wish it was just posted as, "here's the price of the car". but again... i still see no point where it's lying. whether it is direct material, labour, taxes, whatever.. they all go into the "cost" of the car... breaking it up (while annoying) is not lying.

to no h20, yeah, the stickers are more an annoyance to any thieves. much like an alarm system or anything like a club. just might make the lazy thief go on to the next car. sure as hell doesn't make it impossible to steal... and if your car has been "etched" and is stolen, the company who has it registered pays out an additional 4000 on top of the insurance pay off. (not 100% on the exact amount... it's 4-5 iirc though).  and as i've said previous... i don't like etching, but i don't let it bother me... only if a dealer is being totally douchey and charging 500 bucks for it PLUS and admin fee...

the admin part we've gone over enough, so i won't get into it. it's just another profit area, so deal with it as such.

[tooscoops]

to aqua... tis true! i'm the bad guy! heh... oh well.

 as for dropping profits... they have. by a lot. at least in the simplest way of looking at it. a big problem with auto sales started happening a while back... when profits were determined by what you made on the sale of each car, it was easy to figure out. now it's what you make on the sale... what additional program (volume, step ones) was available... whether you hit target... whether you made "fast starts" or whatever... whether there were admin/pack/etch type fees... so a car that a salesperson might see a profit statement of only 75 bucks to the dealer, they think... crap.. and they pay me 200, they are selling it for a loss! so in that sense,, they are making less...

but say a particular car has a 300 pack (amount of profit not counted), a 389 admin, a 500 stair step on the model, an 800 volume bonus, a 500 fast start.... that 75 profit is now 2564.... and because of the "interesting" way of calculating the profit, they only have to pay out a minimum commission, so they net even more than they used to on a 2500 profit.

new problems arise though... that car listed above say is sold for 20000... but say the nice guy dealer down the street (with no admin) isn't having a good month and isn't going to get the bonuses... if he sold it to match the price down the road, all they'd show as profit is equal to the pack and the admin... 764.

say they talk the sale price down by another 800 bucks... now nice guy dealer is *actually* losing money... douchebag dealer can sell it and still make 1764...

those are the issues i have with the new pricing/costs....

and there is today's lesson on car sales! i must be bored.

[Triple Bob]

The real reason profits are lower is that people are now much more clued up on how much they were getting screwed before.  Now they use the internet, shop around, and haggle.

It may be a pain in the arse for salespeople, but at the end of the day the car companies are still very profitable.

[tooscoops]

yep. very true. informed customers, combined with increased competition.

i think the companies are still doing just fine... the owners of dealerships are making a little less money, but still good coin compared to a decade ago... all lower levels at the dealership make less than they used to (new hire to new hire comparison). so the people you see day to day will be less qualified and you won't see as many people spending decades with one store and being product knowledge wizards.

[blotter]

doing some number crunching I ran into something I didn't notice before.
if you do your own build on Toyota's site, the final page give a breakdown
here's an example: 

Tacoma model x $38,785 (this is MSRP)
freight + delivery $1690
air tax $100
OMVIC $5
Enviromental Fee/Tires $28.45
Dealer Adm Fee ****    (fees not listed, the fine print states dealers may charge for bla bla bla)

TOTAL $$40,608.45

HST: $5279.10

GRAND TOTAL $45,887.55


OK... not sure if anyone else noticed how this is added up BUT
all the fees, like air tax, OMVIC are added to the price BEFORE the HST.
so you pay $100 for air tax and AGAIN 13% HST.

is that legal how it's supposed to be calculated.   Feels like there's tax being applied to items that really shouldn't

?

[aquadorhj]

doing some number crunching I ran into something I didn't notice before.
if you do your own build on Toyota's site, the final page give a breakdown
here's an example: 

Tacoma model x $38,785 (this is MSRP)
freight + delivery $1690
air tax $100
OMVIC $5
Enviromental Fee/Tires $28.45
Dealer Adm Fee ****    (fees not listed, the fine print states dealers may charge for bla bla bla)

TOTAL $$40,608.45

HST: $5279.10

GRAND TOTAL $45,887.55


OK... not sure if anyone else noticed how this is added up BUT
all the fees, like air tax, OMVIC are added to the price BEFORE the HST.
so you pay $100 for air tax and AGAIN 13% HST.

is that legal how it's supposed to be calculated.  Feels like there's tax being applied to items that really shouldn't

?

it's double taxation.  it's that way here too.  paying tax on top of tax. 

[tooscoops]

yeah... the "air tax" isn't really a tax. its a fee applied from the gov't, so they call it a tax. and HST is applied to the total selling price of the vehicle... which includes all fees (and "taxes").

but it's the way it always has been. the hst, gst, pst, whateverst, is calculated on the final selling price, which includes all fees, whether they are dealer, manufacturer or gov't. only license plates are outside of the taxable number.

oh, as a side note.. just got our flyer that dodge was nice enough to send out on behalf of us... for ram trucks at 26295....

the actual fine print says dealers can charge up to 1098 admin AND 1298 for "safety products" over that... that only some customers will get a 1500 rebate included in the price... and not mentioned is that there are like 20 of these in canada and that no one will trade them.

[blotter]

^^^

as long as it's legal, that's fine.  that's life.
i just wasn't sure it the list of fees qualify to be taxed but i guess like you said, everything is facking taxes!

sat in a RAM the other day (while waiting for the Fiat to have an oil change)
it was pretty darn nice inside.   the dial shifter is something to get used to

[Black Hatch]

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2604666/
Grand Prairie dealership admits to overcharging customers.
Guess which fees?

[KD]

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2604666/
Grand Prairie dealership admits to overcharging customers.
Guess which fees?

Bezanson was billed $599 to have his tires inflated with nitrogen gas and another $599 for a body panel marking program touted as a theft-deterrent.

OMG what a scam...   I would laugh, then walk real quickly outta that dealer if they presented me with that charge.  It would be hard to imagine anyone actually buying a car from these scumbags after this fiasco.  But then again...