Topic: Thin 0W-16 oil for better fuel economy but at what cost?

[EV Dan]

^ What i did notice is he may have an interest in promoting an additive mentioned in the tests. Apart from that, do you have an article link where his testing methods are scientifically challenged?

[UnknownJinX]

^ What i did notice is he may have an interest in promoting an additive mentioned in the tests. Apart from that, do you have an article link where his testing methods are scientifically challenged?

There is a BITOG thread where people demonstrated how they challenged him for good reasons. The forum seems to be under maintenance right now but I can post a link later. There are a quick few points I can remember:

- someone in the thread mentioned that the equipment used by government agencies/oil companies have about 30% error, yet his miracle home rig can produce results that are 6 significant figures accurate(which is to say, very confident result - realistically with a 30% error bar you'd be lucky if you can use 2 significant figures).

- his findings are never peer-reviewed.

- as I mentioned, even if you know nothing about motor oil, or engineering as a whole, the way he reacts to any opposition(like a dictator that uses science as his shield) smells fishy.

Edit: here is an article that's also worth a read

http://xtremerevolution.net/exposting-the-flaws-in-540rats-engineering-test-data-blog/

And this

http://xtremerevolution.net/exposing-the-flaws-in-540rats-rebuttal/

[EV Dan]

^ No one really knows what kind of equipment RAT uses, so a peer review is out of the question. Based on his own description it however makes sense to me, as what he tests is strength of oil film in PSI before metal to metal contact occurs, which obviously what you don't want to happen in an engine of any design and what IMHO can define oil's engine protection capabilities. Like I said above, his "prolong" additive plugs are suspicious of vested interest but the oil ranking rings true.

P.S. He has done some digging into oil filters (chapter 49 at the end of the blog) and the results are interesting. Honda, Hyundai and Toyota branded filters did poorly in his quality assessments. Search for "49" or "motorcraft" to get to the test.

[UnknownJinX]

^ No one really knows what kind of equipment RAT uses, so a peer review is out of the question. Based on his own description it however makes sense to me, as what he tests is strength of oil film in PSI before metal to metal contact occurs, which obviously what you don't want to happen in an engine of any design and what IMHO can define oil's engine protection capabilities. Like I said above, his "prolong" additive plugs are suspicious of vested interest but the oil ranking rings true.

P.S. He has done some digging into oil filters (chapter 49 at the end of the blog) and the results are interesting. Honda, Hyundai and Toyota branded filters did poorly in his quality assessments. Search for "49" or "motorcraft" to get to the test.

...which is exactly the problem. If he doesn't reveal his equipment or procedures, you cannot replicate his results and no one can check it. It doesn't matter why he can't reveal it(he claims it's proprietary, but who knows), as it stands now, his results are at best, questionable because no one can check them.

And let me ask you this question: if he has a miracle rig that can produce results accurate to 5 to 6 significant figures(again, that's a pretty big deal) when even well-established tests like the 4-ball test have poor repeatability, he would have been a very, very rich man now. Oil companies would have been all over him, but that's not the case as far as we know, which implies one of two things, neither of which is good.

- the results aren't really meaningful enough for any oil companies to pay any mind to a miracle rig like this.

- his rig can't produce the results any better than most of the equipment oil companies currently have access to.

The thing that really makes me really question him is his attitude. Most of his responses to his criticizers don't sound like something coming out of an engineer.

I will have a look at the oil filter testing assuming he shares the testing procedures.

To counter his viscosity point, a lot of cars run on XW-20 just fine so even his "run anything above XW-30 if you care" is questionable. There was also a fairly new Accord on the Accord forum that had an engine failure after using 0W-40 instead of the recommended 0W-20. Whether or not that's related to the oil, hard to say for sure, but to me that's more than a coincidence.

Just my hunch, but I trust the engineers at Toyota way more than him.

Edit: the oil filter test seems to be him cutting them open and taking a look at the construction. It's alright and a lot of people do that.

[EV Dan]

There is likely nothing miraculous or proprietory about his rig, likely something simple like a metal disc spinning half submerged in hot 230F degree oil and on top a metal tip applied against it at variable and measured pressure. More pressure you can apply before oil starts smoking at the contact, the better is the film resistance to friction which implies a better quality oil.
Why not share his methods or anything else? I guess he does it for fun, as a hobby, and simply doesn't want to get sued.
Obviously if there are official labs which do tests on wide range of oil sold retail then I'd like to see those results and check how they compare.

[rrocket]

I use these guys in Edmonton for my oil analysis.

https://polarislabs.com/

[UnknownJinX]

There is likely nothing miraculous or proprietory about his rig, likely something simple like a metal disc spinning half submerged in hot 230F degree oil and on top a metal tip applied against it at variable and measured pressure. More pressure you can apply before oil starts smoking at the contact, the better is the film resistance to friction which implies a better quality oil.
Why not share his methods or anything else? I guess he does it for fun, as a hobby, and simply doesn't want to get sued.
Obviously if there are official labs which do tests on wide range of oil sold retail then I'd like to see those results and check how they compare.

Well you can just watch Project Farm on YouTube if you want to see something like that in action. At least he shares his procedures so the test can be repeated if one desires.

But as I mentioned, even top industrial tests have limitations, in that the repeatability is relatively poor. When you want to, again, publish results with 5 to 6 significant figures, you are gonna need equipment more refined than some homemade rigs. If his results are more like 110,000 psi, 90,000 psi, that at least looks like the type of accuracy I am expecting, but when it's something like 117,799 psi or 93,661psi, anyone who has calculated and written a lab report is going to raise their eyebrows.

Realistically a rig like you described could be used for some qualitative observations, but not much else.

And again, it doesn't matter why you can't share your methods and procedures. If you can't share it with anyone, no one can prove how valid it is, which means the results are not very useful. That's all there is to it.

I am sounding harsh here but it's just the engineering-minded part of me kicking in.

[EV Dan]

^ I figured. On the internets you gotta be a cult member to discuss motor oils with authority so science need not apply 

[tpl]

Both our cars run on Different 0w-20 oils.   I have no idea how different or if it just one of many parameters different.
The Fit gets its changes at the dealer and uses Honda's 0w-20  but oils meeting Honda's spec are easily available as sort of generic 0w-20 synthetics.

The Volvo probably came with a Volvo spec 0w-30 oil, their last generation oil but got filled after 6 months with Liqui-Moly Volvo specific  0w-20 and at the first official service was filled with a Volvo specific Castrol 0W-20 at the dealer   which can be found on the internet at Castrol web sites but not the Canadian site.   The Liqui-Moly is available but not on their Canadian site.
All very weird.

I have no idea if these thin oils give better economy and don't care either...all I want is for them to keep the engine clean and intact.    I do a lot of 5-10 km trips from cold in the winter which is not good for any engine and its oil.

[UnknownJinX]

^ I figured. On the internets you gotta be a cult member to discuss motor oils with authority so science need not apply 

I mean, I guess I should applaud him for trying to quantify it, but his methods(which he refuses to share) and his attitude(personal attacks to anyone who questions him and points out flaws respectfully) aren't convincing. Just so we are clear here, I am not saying he is wrong, but rather no one knows if he is right or wrong. In the end, it just means the results aren't useful.

And yeah, engine oil is too deep of a rabbit hole for most people's understanding to go down, but some of the flaws with RAT's test can be understood even if you know zero things about engine oil. My general rule of thumb is to just follow the Owner's Manual, really. If you really believe that high viscosity is better and the manual says it's fine to use 0W-20, go with that.

Keep in mind that modern engines have different mechanisms like VVT and VVL(an example would be VTEC) that run off engine oil so I don't think it's wise to switch engine oil weight without a good reason. As someone mentioned, you could be denied warranty if they find out you are not using the recommended oil viscosity.

[rrocket]

^ I figured. On the internets you gotta be a cult member to discuss motor oils with authority so science need not apply  [emoji14]

But is it science if it's only repeatable 1 place in the world?

[EV Dan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjtksfRR3_k

Thanks for the link by the way!

As can be seen at 7min mark, even interpretation of test results is often in the eye of the beholder, or tester. In this film strength test I think I'm seeing less wear in case of Quaker than Schaeffers. And the evap test is passed by Quaker with flying colours. It seems the RAT test whatever it may be comes to similar conclusions.

In another video these guys test Shell Rotella Truck oil which also shows superior to its competitor. Bottom line is Shell Co, as much as they are hated for the environmental impact, make decent motor oil.

[UnknownJinX]

^ I figured. On the internets you gotta be a cult member to discuss motor oils with authority so science need not apply  [emoji14]

But is it science if it's only repeatable 1 place in the world?

If you write and CAPITALIZE "science" and "fact" enough times, apparently, yes!

[EV Dan]

All their (PF) oil testing was not consistent throughout the competition. In the semifinals (or quatefinals, I can't recall) Quaker showed the lowest evap loss at ~1.5g over 3hr 375F test. But on the Finals between Amsoil and Pennzoil they heated oil to 425F for 2hrs, which is quite not the same and Pennzoil won by a small margin.
I'd be so much more informative for the overall comparison if they stuck to the same 375F 3hrs test...  Oh well.

[EV Dan]

Both our cars run on Different 0w-20 oils.   I have no idea how different or if it just one of many parameters different.
The Fit gets its changes at the dealer and uses Honda's 0w-20  but oils meeting Honda's spec are easily available as sort of generic 0w-20 synthetics.

The Volvo probably came with a Volvo spec 0w-30 oil, their last generation oil but got filled after 6 months with Liqui-Moly Volvo specific  0w-20 and at the first official service was filled with a Volvo specific Castrol 0W-20 at the dealer   which can be found on the internet at Castrol web sites but not the Canadian site.   The Liqui-Moly is available but not on their Canadian site.
All very weird.

I have no idea if these thin oils give better economy and don't care either...all I want is for them to keep the engine clean and intact.    I do a lot of 5-10 km trips from cold in the winter which is not good for any engine and its oil.

But what does the Volvo manual and the oil cap say?

[tpl]

Mine is an early 2019.  Built January 2019

The oil cap says nothing.
There is a little sticker  in the engine compartment which says Castro Edge Professional  5w-30.

The manual says the same and also says the the specific  0W-20 is recommended for extreme conditions.

The manual for the rest of the world for 2019 cars with the same engine all say the Volvo 0W-20.

There was a TSB from Volvo in summer 2019 saying all 2019s like mine and subsequent model years would use the specific Volvo 0w-20.

So being a guy who believes in oil changes at regular intervals ( not once a year or 20,000km)   I now run on 0W-20 and that is what the dealer filled it with this May.   So it probably came from the factory with 5w-30.

[EV Dan]

Mine is an early 2019.  Built January 2019

The oil cap says nothing.
There is a little sticker  in the engine compartment which says Castro Edge Professional  5w-30.

The manual says the same and also says the the specific  0W-20 is recommended for extreme conditions.

The manual for the rest of the world for 2019 cars with the same engine all say the Volvo 0W-20.

There was a TSB from Volvo in summer 2019 saying all 2019s like mine and subsequent model years would use the specific Volvo 0w-20.

So being a guy who believes in oil changes at regular intervals ( not once a year or 20,000km)   I now run on 0W-20 and that is what the dealer filled it with this May.   So it probably came from the factory with 5w-30.

First time I see oil with lower "summer" number being recommended for extreme conditions, unless "extreme" means going to Ikea all the time 

Anyway, ACEA A5/B5 seems to be the main requirement besides the viscosity grade, and this seems to meet the reqs:
 https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/mobil-1-0w30-synthetic-engine-oil-4-73-l-0289454p.html
Personally I think 30wt is better for summer/towing/high speed driving in terms of engine protection. But in your case whatever keeps your factory warranty is perhaps the best choice.

[EV Dan]

^^^ sorry, it seems only 5w-30 meets the ACEA specs.

This too if you can find it:
https://www.shell.ca/fr_ca/motorists/huiles-moteur-et-lubrifiants-shell/huiles-moteur-pour-voiture-shell-helix/huiles-moteur-shell-Helix-100-persent-synthetique/shell-helix-ultra-sn-5w-30.html

[tpl]

THis is the info from Volvo  updated in 2019  for my car.   I don't tow ever.
The specified change interval is 1 year or 20,000 kms.   I change every 6 months which I accept is probably a waste of money but it is my long standing habit.

Engine     Engine code           Oil grade                                                                Volume, incl. oil filter   (litres, approx.)

T5           B4204T26       Castrol Edge Professional V 0W-20 or VCC RBS0-2AE 0W-20        5,6

Castrol, Liqui-Moly and a couple of other Euro oils have this spec.

https://www.volvocars.com/en-th/support/manuals/xc60/2019-early/specifications/specifications-for-engine/engine-oil----specifications

[EV Dan]

You are doing the next car owner a big favour with the frequent oil changes and I think it sucks for the rest of used Volvo buyers because after 20k a fairly small amount of oil (just over 5L, unlike what some German cars take) is going to be filthy.