Topic: Feature: Why AJAC Awards Matter

[aaronk]

I'm a big fan of Car & Driver's Top 10 list. It kind of skips the categories and just highlights a good vehicle and then defends that position. That vehicle may do one particular thing really well, or more commonly it may do many things well. Sure not everyone will agree, but I like the broad-spectrum, non-categorized approach. This is a car we like, this is why we like it, that's it. If you want a facts list you can go to the manufacturer web site, I want to hear what the facts mean in the real world as it's not always what it seems.

[Mike]

Just as an example, picking one CUV over another based on its corner carving ability and downplaying the primary function isn't worth much to me.

If we ever do that, I'll be sure to stop writing.

Not to be an asshat, but here's a quote from YOUR article:

"...
The Escape did not win, but it did win over Social Editor Mike Schlee, who came away raving about it: “I reeeeaaally liked the Escape. If I was to buy one of these, it would be the Escape, especially if the incentives were right.” Why was he so smitten? Driving dynamics and overall competence. It might not have quite the practicality or efficiency of the CR-V, but it shines when driven hard, striking the best balance between comfort and handling, even on its big 19-inch wheels
..."

Did I miss something or should you stop writing?
Was that a comparison of CUV's or hotrods? Why so much emphasis on driving hard, and not the comfort and utility?
Do you encourage Escape owners to drive hard? Is that how it's supposed to be appreciated?

lol, good skewed highlight, but two issues; the escape didn't win, and you left in the part that said "best balance between comfort and handling"  you should have also removed the part about comfort to REALLY make you point.  In fact you just proved my personal preference for the Escape didn't alter our evaluation of the vehicles for what they are

Any yes, people spending north of $40K on a compact CUV are not buying the most practical, utilitarian vehicle.  If they were, they would get a CR-V EX.

Now, before you dig up more quotes regarding the Tiguan, here is why the Tiguan beat the Santa Fe

Area's the Tiguan Beat the Santa Fe:
-Features Usability
-Front Seat Comfort/Position
-Easy to drive
-Fuel Economy
-Easy of entry to rear seats
-Sightlines
-Ease of Parking
-Styling (exterior)
-Lighting System (exterior)
-Handling Ability
-Steering feel
-Braking Ability
-Engine
-Transmission

Area's they tied:
-Ease of entry front
-Interior styling
-Stereo (ease of use and sound)
-Ride Comfort
-NHV

Area's it lost:
-Amount of features / amenities
-Cargo space and flexability
-Fit and Finish
-Gauges Menu Screens
-Cabin Storage
-Rear Seat comfort
-Child seat installation

[whaddaiknow]

Just as an example, picking one CUV over another based on its corner carving ability and downplaying the primary function isn't worth much to me.

If we ever do that, I'll be sure to stop writing.

Not to be an asshat, but here's a quote from YOUR article:

"...
The Escape did not win, but it did win over Social Editor Mike Schlee, who came away raving about it: “I reeeeaaally liked the Escape. If I was to buy one of these, it would be the Escape, especially if the incentives were right.” Why was he so smitten? Driving dynamics and overall competence. It might not have quite the practicality or efficiency of the CR-V, but it shines when driven hard, striking the best balance between comfort and handling, even on its big 19-inch wheels
..."

Did I miss something or should you stop writing?
Was that a comparison of CUV's or hotrods? Why so much emphasis on driving hard, and not the comfort and utility?
Do you encourage Escape owners to drive hard? Is that how it's supposed to be appreciated?

lol, good skewed highlight, but two issues; the escape didn't win, and you left in the part that said "best balance between comfort and handling"  you should have also removed the part about comfort to REALLY make you point.  In fact you just proved my personal preference for the Escape didn't alter our evaluation of the vehicles for what they are

Mike you are being a little trigger happy here. I never said it won. Look up, I said you picked one CUV over another. And in this contex I meant specifically Escape vs CR-V. You did exactly as I said, you picked the Escape over the CR-V based on performance metrics and not utility. In all fairness, you do mention that based on pure utilitarian approach, the CR-V would be a better choice, but YOU still picked the Escape which means performance is more important to YOU in a CUV than utility.

And please be fair to me, I didn't clip the article and provided the text in its entirety.

[sailor723]

Fit and Finish
  While I can readily see the Santa Fe beating the VW in a lot of areas this one really surprises me!

[Mike]

I just yanking your chain, .  But it wasn't utility that lost for the CR-V.  It gets outclassed at this level on a styling, feature, fit and finish level too.  The Escape loses out to the Tiguan the same way the CR-V lost out to the Santa Fe Sport. Plus, remember, the CR-V did win in our regular-where-people-really-shop-for-these-crossovers comparison last spring.

Give me a second and I can get you the scoring for the CR-V vs. Escape too to see where it did win and lose, I am now curious because where the Santa Fe Sport and Tiguan virtually tied for first, the CR-V and Escape virtually tied for third.

[Mike]

Fit and Finish
  While I can readily see the Santa Fe beating the VW in a lot of areas this one really surprises me!

Volkswagen is cutting back.  The top half of the dash, front door trimmings and steering wheel are all nice touch materials.  But the rear door trimmings, which appear to be the exact same material, are cheap hard plastic.  So is the bottom half of the dash and the center console.  They pull an old switch-er-roo on materials.  vents and radio didn't feel any better than the Hyundai

[Mike]

Here ya go.  CR-V is the utilitarian champ, and can't be beat in the low to mid price point.  But wander up to the $40,000 mark where people want more than easy, basic utility, and it starts to falter.

Area's the Escape Beat the CR-V:
-styling
-lighting system (exterior)
-interior styling
-feature content
-front seat comfort
-Stereo (sound and ease of use)
-Fit and Finish
-Gauges and Menu Screens
-Rear Seat Adjustability (CR-V's are fixed on a recline level)
-handling
-steering feel
-engine
-transmission
-NVH

Area's they tied:
-ride comfort
-braking
-ease of parking
-rear seat comfort

Area's it lost:
-front seat ease of entry
-rear seat ease of entry
-feature usability
-sightlines
-cargo capacity/fleability
-cabin storage
-easy to drive
-fuel economy
-child seat installation

[my2cents]

I'll tell you why AJAC is irrelevant by my own experience.

I already decided to buy an SUV - so all other categories didn't apply.

I wanted to compare those I was considering against each other for features that were important to me.

That eliminates AJAC right away. How can I compare Rav4 against Forester against CRV against Mitsubishi using AJAC?

I give points this way - lots of points for 10 year warranty - big fail for cars with 10 year warranty in the US but not Canada.

Lots of points for least price differential between US and Canada.

Mitsubishi lost out for having different and better US choices - not available in Canada.

Toyota won for having lowest price difference between US and Canada and had more features at a lower price than the competition for things I wanted.

I don't care how distilling the opinions of 60 journalists has any bearing on my choice. I would probably be happy if some journalists agreed with me rather than a compiled average.

Those that I don't agree with are just annoying. As in - I don't want leather or nav or yellow so it has no value.


Now I'll tell you what is relevant -

Both Mitsubishi and Kia have a "compare" feature to compare 3 or 4 of your choice against each other.

They are a bit slanted in favour of their own brand though.

For example they said Rav4 has no vanity mirrors when in fact the Rav has superior vanity mirrors with the light in the ceiling rather than on the side of the mirrors. Not that it matters.

If I could do that on the AJAC website - it would have some value.

[Mike]

We plan to improve the compare tool on this site as well as I agree in how helpful it is.

[Ex-airbalancer]

We plan to improve the compare tool on this site as well as I agree in how helpful it is.

Who are the tools  

[Mike]

We plan to improve the compare tool on this site as well as I agree in how helpful it is.

Who are tools  

<------------------------

[whaddaiknow]

Area's the Escape Beat the CR-V:
-styling purely subjective
-lighting system (exterior) really that important that it would be a deal breaker with well lit city streets and highways?
-interior styling very subjective
-feature content were they priced the same to warrant the win? From what I read, the Escape was second most expensive behind Tiguan Or are you talking about the same features that James said he had to pull over to the side of the road to manually enter his destination because the voice recognition wouldn't work? And that's a win?
-front seat comfort can't say so I'll give you that
-Stereo (sound and ease of use) Again would that bear that much weight in a CUV?
-Fit and Finish Hard to belive the margin would be significant
-Gauges and Menu Screens  Having driven the Focus, I'm no fan of Fords latest styling so that's subjective
-Rear Seat Adjustability (CR-V's are fixed on a recline level) Ok, I have a reclining feature in my kid's carseat that will compensate for that 
-handling Sure, the Escape will take the onramp 5km/h faster and make my dog throw up in the back! Yey!
-steering feel Nice, not critical in a CUV but still desirable
-engine For driving hard as you like it? Maybe
-transmission Details please? Extra cog? Faster shift when driving hard?
-NVH That one IS nice

Area's they tied:
-ride comfort
-braking
-ease of parking
-rear seat comfort Even despite non-reclining seatbacks in CR-V? So why then is it a win for Escape if they are equally comfortable?

Area's it lost:
-front seat ease of entry Isn't that nice?
-rear seat ease of entry Isn't that nice when you have kids in carseats in tight parking lots?
-feature usability So I won't get annoyed by MFT and voice recognition that won't understand my English?
-sightlines That would be nice for safety
-cargo capacity/fleability Wow, that's what I though a CUV was for!
-cabin storage Thank you
-easy to drive I'm sure 99% of those who don't drive hard would appreciate it
-fuel economy But voice activated GPS that doesn't recognize my English is more important right?
-child seat installation that's what I though a CUV was for! Families!
[/quote]

Only one question, just HOW is it possible to rank styling, lighting system, interior styling, and Stereo higher than ease of entry, usability, ease of driving and cargo capacity? That's what REALLY baffles me. How many points did you assign to each of those? I would be VERY curious. 

[whaddaiknow]

I know I'm being hard but I'm not criticizing for the sake of criticizing, I am actually suggesting something that may be considered as part of a solution of some sort.

Comparing a boxster to S2000 is one thing, comparing family haulers is another. You can't put the same weight on handling when reviewing different categories. It's as simple as playing an actor and putting yourself in the shoes of a potential buyer who would have to live with it for a number of years. There are usually very specific reasons people opt for one solution or another, and if they pick a CUV and not a sedan or a convertible, those are the features that the review would focus on first and foremost. Everything else is a bonus.

Now, I'll go shoot myself as I know I'm not getting anywhere with this and no one else is interested...
Two days till Friday...

[Mike]

I appreciate your sarcasm, but your emphasis on cargo space over all others mean we should be driving Equinox's over the CR-V or maybe used Crown Victorias .  Again, for space and value conscious minded folks, a $30,000 CR-V can't be beat.  I do put myself into the shoes of potential buyers; like my wife's empty nester Aunt and Uncle who just bought a Escape Titanium because the wanted a premium crossover to replace their Montana Minivan now that the kids are gone.

The categories up top aren't ranked in order of importance, just in order of how they appeared on the score sheet.  In CUV's cargo, fuel efficiency and driver comfort are weighted the highest.  Again, remember these are premium crossovers, not the basic ones so features, looks, and geez-whiz items are important.

Feature content was things like rear camera, panoramic roof, etc.  I can't sit here all day explaining it, but handling and steering feel equal roughly 6 percent of the total score combined.  All vehicles are weighted after the final scores by price.  This brought the CR-V from fifth to a near tie for 3rd.

You seem to hate the Escape for MFT and that is fine, that will be a deal breaker for many.  But for others, like young families, that is what they want since they are not into cars but love their apps and gadgets.

Like I said in the story; these two tied almost, and both lost to the bigger, cargo carrying Santa Fe


Oh...and yeah...fit and finish is that much different.

[HeliDriver]

I know I'm being hard but I'm not criticizing for the sake of criticizing, I am actually suggesting something that may be considered as part of a solution of some sort.

Comparing a boxster to S2000 is one thing, comparing family haulers is another. You can't put the same weight on handling when reviewing different categories. It's as simple as playing an actor and putting yourself in the shoes of a potential buyer who would have to live with it for a number of years. There are usually very specific reasons people opt for one solution or another, and if they pick a CUV and not a sedan or a convertible, those are the features that the review would focus on first and foremost. Everything else is a bonus.

Now, I'll go shoot myself as I know I'm not getting anywhere with this and no one else is interested...
Two days till Friday...

Yup... sounds like you'd be happier over at Consumer Reports. I'd rather read about how vehicles actually drive (yes, even CUVs).

[whaddaiknow]

I know I'm being hard but I'm not criticizing for the sake of criticizing, I am actually suggesting something that may be considered as part of a solution of some sort.

Comparing a boxster to S2000 is one thing, comparing family haulers is another. You can't put the same weight on handling when reviewing different categories. It's as simple as playing an actor and putting yourself in the shoes of a potential buyer who would have to live with it for a number of years. There are usually very specific reasons people opt for one solution or another, and if they pick a CUV and not a sedan or a convertible, those are the features that the review would focus on first and foremost. Everything else is a bonus.

Now, I'll go shoot myself as I know I'm not getting anywhere with this and no one else is interested...
Two days till Friday...

Yup... sounds like you'd be happier over at Consumer Reports. I'd rather read about how vehicles actually drive (yes, even CUVs).

And you'd be happier at a demolition derby because you are seeking excitement where it doesn't belong or in reading school since I never said I didn't care how my cars drive, just less important in SOME applications

[Sir Osis of Liver]

All I hear is that MY choice didn't win on the criteria I find important.

[dutch]

...

The fact you are on this site, a car site, alone makes you more informed than the average consumer and you have strong, deep set opinions on many of these cars tested here.  But think of other purchases you make in your life that are not your passion.  Washing machines, televisions, hot water heaters, snowblowers, etc.  Having a good consumer review site to get you primary details is always a good start.

I read reviews for every major purchase we make, from the $100 GPS to the $30,000 vehicle.  I wish there was something similar for the real big purchase in life, the house.

I may not agree with a reviewer, but then I tend to look at multiple reviews anyway.  What I look for are items that may bug me (poor seating, poor sight lines as examples) so that when I go to test drive I can evaluate those as they effect me.  Is there any perfect system?  No, but put all together they do offer a valuable consumer tool, even for gear heads.

Housing review system would be great.

Spousal review system?  NOW that could save some $$$. Although i wouldn't want to read of too many "test-drives"

[Fobroader]

All I hear is that MY choice didn't win on the criteria I find important.

 

[tooscoops]

wow.. i thought i got defensive/offensive regarding some comparisons and such...

if people totally only bought vehicles on quantitative, obvious and segment driven decisions, there would not be over 250 different cars on the road.

the fact that everyone has a different reason to choose a car makes room for variety in the marketplace and healthy competition.