Topic: The Quick and the Dad: 2017 Honda Civic Type R

[Seafoam]

but those 2 fake ones make up a quarter of the front fascia - ruin the whole look for me they stick out like a sore thumb

Hard to believe 2 vents ruin the whole look for you based on some of the Italian designed styling train wrecks you enjoy so much.....

ouch

[greengs]

Again with the giant bench that does nothing apparently.

it does nothing at city speeds...sure, if you are tracking it at high speed it will apply downforce to the rear end...which is what you want, since it's rear wheel drive and there typically isn't much weight in the rear end of the cars (that have the engines at the front).

look at a race car:



front spoilers and ground effects to keep the front end planted and prevent it from lifting (going airborne) and rear spoilers for pushing the rear end to provide maximum grip for the drive wheels both for acceleration and from losing traction on corners.

keep in mind, one "challenge" in (example) F1 racing is the cars are very powerful, but very light (about 1000 HP and weigh about 1500 lbs)...the spoilers they use can generate the cars weight (1500 lbs) in downforce at 130 km/hr...at 180 km/hr, it's double the cars weight (so about 3000 lbs of downforce at 180 km/hr).

i'll agree that looks are subjective, and in terms of raw performance, i'm sure this is a pretty decent car...I guess i'll close by saying "it's not my cup of tea"...and leave it at that...I forgot it is forbidden to speak ill of Honda in here.

Agree looks are subjective.  You can speak ill of Honda all you want about its looks, reliability, price, etc, The fact though is that the wing on the CTR along with the vortex generator on the roof are fully functional just like all the ad-dons on the Camaro are functional at a track setting.  At 200 km/h it doesn't matter if a car is RWD or FWD you need the down-force on both ends.  It is for stability and not because a car has issues putting the power down.  At those speeds even a 650hp car wont be spinning the back tires. 

[dirtyjeffer]

At 200 km/h it doesn't matter if a car is RWD or FWD you need the down-force on both ends.  It is for stability and not because a car has issues putting the power down.  At those speeds even a 650hp car wont be spinning the back tires.

sure it does...it's called oversteer...lots of fast cars on the 'Ring lose traction from the rear end and spin out.

[dirtyjeffer]

Here's another picture of a race car with a giant rear wing. Yup, wings serve no purpose on FWD cars. 

that's a FWD race car?

[Vmango]

Yup, that’s the GTR LM Nismo.

[Weels]

Sounds like an amazing drivers car and the recent motor trend ignition video really pumped that up.

I just watched that video last night.
The one thing that blew me away was that on the 'Ring the R is one second behind a 997 GT3 RS
I just drove a 'regular' GT3 around a track a couple months ago, and the R keeps up with the hotter version of that car...

As Frank Barone would say, "Holey Crap".

[Cadure]

Here's another picture of a race car with a giant rear wing. Yup, wings serve no purpose on FWD cars. 

that's a FWD race car?

The wings on that car have nothing to do with being wrong wheel drive.  It weighs 1930 lbs and has 750 hp.  The wings help it not take flight.

FWIW, that FWD design was completely non competitive.  One race only.  The next year the program was cancelled.

On the other hand, that chassis can be converted to AWD and was designed as such from the beginning.

[ChaosphereIX]

Sounds like an amazing drivers car and the recent motor trend ignition video really pumped that up.

I just watched that video last night.
The one thing that blew me away was that on the 'Ring the R is one second behind a 997 GT3 RS
I just drove a 'regular' GT3 around a track a couple months ago, and the R keeps up with the hotter version of that car...

As Frank Barone would say, "Holey Crap".

yeah that is what I thought

when set up right, who cares what wheels are driven - fast is fast

[ChaosphereIX]

but those 2 fake ones make up a quarter of the front fascia - ruin the whole look for me they stick out like a sore thumb

Hard to believe 2 vents ruin the whole look for you based on some of the Italian designed styling train wrecks you enjoy so much.....

ouch

ouch indeed, but im not gonna take the bait

[dirtyjeffer]

Here's another picture of a race car with a giant rear wing. Yup, wings serve no purpose on FWD cars. 

that's a FWD race car?

The wings on that car have nothing to do with being wrong wheel drive.  It weighs 1930 lbs and has 750 hp.  The wings help it not take flight.

FWIW, that FWD design was completely non competitive.  One race only.  The next year the program was cancelled.

On the other hand, that chassis can be converted to AWD and was designed as such from the beginning.

i realize that...my point is the wings (or front and rear spoilers) are important on race cars, as they are very powerful and quite light (compared to regular cars we plebes drive)...they also drive at 10/10s limits on a track and at speeds none of us drive...i think in the case of CTR, they've done it more for looks (give it that F&F look) than outright practicality...the wing on it would offer minimal downforce on a car that isn't really any quicker than a Golf R.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYg1IDrJUs&t=173s

don't get me wrong, it's got some decent performance credentials...it's got some interesting engineering stuff behind it...i get that...i just think it looks over the top ridiculous and when combined with dealers asking $10k over list, i don't see why anyone would buy this over many of the other "hot hatches" available...if this car had a Hyundai badge slapped on the hood, this thread would be 14 pages long criticizing it's styling, price, FWD set up, etc...but throw an "H" on the hood and no one is allowed a differing opinion?...jebus.

[ChaosphereIX]

wings not needed on performance FWD cars? Modern touring cars since the mid 90s would beg to differ.

BTW Rob Huff's Civic in the WTCC pic above has the same power as the street car, just less weight....and the race engineers deemed it beneficial for it to have a wing.

[dirtyjeffer]

wings not needed on performance FWD cars? Modern touring cars since the mid 90s would beg to differ.

BTW Rob Huff's Civic in the WTCC pic above has the same power as the street car, just less weight....and the race engineers deemed it beneficial for it to have a wing.

i already said it makes sense on actual race cars...also, that car above has a 1.6L turbo engine pushing 380 hp and the car only weighs 1100 kg including the driver...again, driven on a track at 10/10s, the wings are necessary...i've already said this numerous times.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

i realize that...my point is the wings (or front and rear spoilers) are important on race cars, as they are very powerful and quite light (compared to regular cars we plebes drive)...they also drive at 10/10s limits on a track and at speeds none of us drive...i think in the case of CTR, they've done it more for looks (give it that F&F look) than outright practicality...the wing on it would offer minimal downforce on a car that isn't really any quicker than a Golf R.

I think you are wrong.  I think the aero on the CTR does INDEED do something.  Remember, the Civic Type R is only 1 second off the 997 GT3 on the Nurburgring:



Are you saying that Porsche engineers, who specialize in going fast, were wrong to put a wing on the back of the 911 GT3?  I mean, that car has most of its weight over its rear tires.  Why on earth would it need more downforce at speed?

[Cadure]

wings not needed on performance FWD cars? Modern touring cars since the mid 90s would beg to differ.

BTW Rob Huff's Civic in the WTCC pic above has the same power as the street car, just less weight....and the race engineers deemed it beneficial for it to have a wing.

That car weighs over 500 lbs less than the road going car and does produce more power as it is completely unrestricted.  Different compression ratio, exhaust system, ECU tune. 

Apples to apples required.

[dirtyjeffer]

on further thought, perhaps the wing does make more sense...since there is little weight at the rear (of the CTR), it would help keep it planted...i still think the amount of downforce is pretty minimal though...rrocket said it was 66 pounds...that isn't very much.

[Cadure]

i realize that...my point is the wings (or front and rear spoilers) are important on race cars, as they are very powerful and quite light (compared to regular cars we plebes drive)...they also drive at 10/10s limits on a track and at speeds none of us drive...i think in the case of CTR, they've done it more for looks (give it that F&F look) than outright practicality...the wing on it would offer minimal downforce on a car that isn't really any quicker than a Golf R.

I think you are wrong.  I think the aero on the CTR does INDEED do something.  Remember, the Civic Type R is only 1 second off the 997 GT3 on the Nurburgring:



Are you saying that Porsche engineers, who specialize in going fast, were wrong to put a wing on the back of the 911 GT3?  I mean, that car has most of its weight over its rear tires.  Why on earth would it need more downforce at speed?

Here are the top 100 times.  Several GT Porsche versions way faster than the Civic.  Also note that the Civic wasn't stock.  Different ECU tune and non street tires.  Who knows if suspension changes were made.  That is the problem with this metric - you never know how 'stock' the car is on the Ring.  Consider that if the Civic is 1 second off then the Focus RS and STI are likely only a couple of seconds off that.  Doubt it.

https://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times-top-100/

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Honda says street-legal, track-focused tires.  So probably Pilot Sport Cup 2's or something similar.  They also say the laptime was set by a pre-production model that was technically representative of a production model.  I suppose that could mean similar tune. 

The only modifications they made was to install a full cage (for safety), and remove the rear seats and HMI hardware to compensate for the weight of the cage.

Now, I'm conjecturing here, but if the Civic Type R is a second or two faster than an RS or an R on a short track, on a track such as the Nurburgring, I'd warrant that it's more then 6-7s off the pace of those cars.

EDIT:  This page has the RS doing a lap time of 8 minutes 6.3 seconds.  That's 22.5s off the pace of the CTR.  It also confirms the CTR was using Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires.

http://fordauthority.com/2017/05/honda-civic-type-r-faster-around-the-ring-than-ford-focus-rs/

[Vmango]

Regarding that drag race the CTR is not a drag car. Of course it’s going to get smoked from a dog by AWD cars with launch control and automatic transmissions. If you note that later in the video the race from a roll and it’s much different.

The CTR as per that motortrend video also beat the Focus RS by over a second on the track test and the Golf R isn’t on my map.

It’s no different that the Zo6 with the Z07 package gets smoked in those drag races. It’s set up as a track car not a drag car. Too much drag from the aero.

No one can argue that the CTR has polarizing ridiculous looks. Love it or hate it. You also  cannot argue  the way it drives and it’s handling/track performance. It’s stellar.

[No-san]

EDIT:  This page has the RS doing a lap time of 8 minutes 6.3 seconds.  That's 22.5s off the pace of the CTR.  It also confirms the CTR was using Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires.

Lap times at the 'ring for a daily driver toy/hot hatch?  So I guess everyone in North America will be frequently tracking their CTR at the 'ring?

Yes, the CTR is capable.  More or less than its competitors here or there.  Who cares.

Question is do you want one or do you not.  If you do not, then go elsewhere.  If you do, you must be blind but that's OK - the world's all about inclusiveness lately .

[Great_Big_Abyss]

EDIT:  This page has the RS doing a lap time of 8 minutes 6.3 seconds.  That's 22.5s off the pace of the CTR.  It also confirms the CTR was using Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires.

Lap times at the 'ring for a daily driver toy/hot hatch?  So I guess everyone in North America will be frequently tracking their CTR at the 'ring?

Then why are you in this thread?  This is about a track-focused car.  Lap times matter.  And a good time at the 'ring is indicative of how fast a car is. 

What's more, we were discussing the merit of the large (albeit ugly) aero that the CTR uses.  I'm saying that the CTR definitely uses its aero to put down blisteringly fast lap times.