Author Topic: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...  (Read 1614 times)

Offline me_2

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« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 08:14:56 pm by me_2 »

Offline Guy

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 08:27:35 pm »
Walmart already ordered 15 and Loblaws 25.  :D

Offline rrocket

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 09:07:25 pm »
Walmart already ordered 15 and Loblaws 25.  :D
JB Hunt too.

Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2017, 09:42:37 pm »
Fuel costs for long haul transports are a significant portion of operating costs, and diesel trucks are dirty in terms of many forms of pollutants.  This is perhaps the most effective use of EV tech.  Even if the GVWR/carrying capacity is lower, it will be more than made up for by reduced costs.

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2017, 10:50:36 pm »
Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2017, 01:56:07 am »
Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.
Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2017, 08:01:14 am »
Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.
Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

This is 100% correct and will likely be a significant issue for battery powered semi trucks for the foreseeable future. 

Volvo and Freightliner have already stated their upcoming EVs may have better performance numbers than their current lineups but freight capacity will be reduced due to road weight regulations. 

Offline Blueprint

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 08:07:27 am »
There's tremendous potential in the electrification of heavy trucks. The amount of noise and pollution from big rigs is ridiculous, and high-torque electric motors should prove adept at moving heavy loads. And no more Brrraaaaaappppp from modded Jacob brakes. Fleets will be quick to adopt them, but indy owners like their big shiny, noisy things. That's where I see the point of the 5s 0-60 - bragging rights  ;D

I just wish Tesla had designed a lower cab, since the huge engine / radiator space up front is now vacated.

Now the main challenge will be moving from idea to production, a classic Tesla hurdle.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 08:09:12 am by Blueprint »
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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2017, 08:12:01 am »
If there ever was an application for EV tech, it is in the transport industry. EVs would be fantastic long haul trucks and eliminate a lot of the pollution [noise and chemical] associated with them.

Companies need to get on this fast, as whoever has a viable product to market soon will get a lot of big orders.

About damn time, save the dead dinos for our weekend toys that can turn them into glorious music as we carve the back roads, not hauling crap from docks to warehouses...
Objects in mirror are losing

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Offline rrocket

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2017, 08:24:01 am »
I know some may poo-poo the idea. But Toyota has been testing their hydrogen fuel cell powered truck in this same class for a couple months now. I somewhat rolled my eyes, because there's no hydrogen infrastructure. But at the same time, there's no Tesla charging infrastructure either for these trucks.

What most shocked me about this was other industry giants are also developing hydrogen fuel cell trucks in this class. Trucking industry giants Kenworth, Cummings and GM both have trucks in development as well as Nikola trucks. And UPS is moving this way too.

So if you have these large companies moving to hydrogen trucks, is it possible a hydrogen infrastructure is more feasible?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 08:37:24 am by rrocket »

Offline rrocket

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2017, 08:37:03 am »
Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.
Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

This is 100% correct and will likely be a significant issue for battery powered semi trucks for the foreseeable future. 

Volvo and Freightliner have already stated their upcoming EVs may have better performance numbers than their current lineups but freight capacity will be reduced due to road weight regulations.
The immediate problem I see, is cost. And to a lesser extent reliability. Diesel trucks are very reliable and go many hundred of thousand miles reliably. And if they happen to suffer a breakdown, there are thousands upon thousands of repair places. This won't be the case for Tesla.

The biggest issue (apart from freight weight) is cost. Freightliners most efficient truck costs $120,000. I've read the battery packs alone for the Tesla would cost between $250-$400,000. Then add the cost of the truck..with it being a Tesla, I'd expect that to be exorbitant. Even with fuel cost advantage (and that's debatable), you'd have to drive many, many miles merely to break even. And these aren't long haul trucks (250 miles between trips)...so that's a long ROI.

And per Musk, a diesel costs $1.50 a mile to operate...his truck (he says) will cost $1.25 per mile. But to achieve that number, the charging cost needs to be 7 cents per KwH. I'm not sure how realistic that is. And it will take several more Teslas to haul 1,000,000 pounds of cargo than it would a diesel.

Offline tpl

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2017, 09:03:08 am »
I know some may poo-poo the idea. But Toyota has been testing their hydrogen fuel cell powered truck in this same class for a couple months now. I somewhat rolled my eyes, because there's no hydrogen infrastructure. But at the same time, there's no Tesla charging infrastructure either for these trucks.

What most shocked me about this was other industry giants are also developing hydrogen fuel cell trucks in this class. Trucking industry giants Kenworth, Cummings and GM both have trucks in development as well as Nikola trucks. And UPS is moving this way too.

So if you have these large companies moving to hydrogen trucks, is it possible a hydrogen infrastructure is more feasible?

Efficiency will be the problem.    For an electric truck you have to make the batteries and charge them. And you can charge them anywhere there is electricity in quantity.
Assuming by a hydrogen truck that you mean a fuel cell then you have to 'make ' the hydrogen and store it and it is ugly stuff to store. Then build a reliable fuel cell with enough output to power the same electric motors as the electric truck has.  The details of the motors may be different but that is unimportant.
'Making'  hydrogen means unbinding the H2 from whatever  it is bound to, from H2O, from Methane CH4 or many other compounds.   That takes lots of energy.  Storing H2 means either very low temperatures or big high pressure tanks.  There is a way to store H2 in a semi metal alloy...I believe it works but I don't know more than that.
I have seen talk of gas stations that could have a natural gas pipeline and an on site H2 reformer for fuel cell vehicles.  No idea of the efficiency or what you do with the Carbon left over.


So I think it is 6 of one, half dozen of the other.       Either technology would work really well for local use vehicles such as city busses, taxis and delivery vehicles...those that have a central 'home' overnight.


Some people think that if you squeeze the essence out of a fungus left over from beer-brewing you end up with a foodstuff that is precisely as appetizing as it sounds. Others are quite partial to Marmite.

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 09:17:40 am »
For all the issues that battery powered vehicles face, hydrogen powered ones take it to the next level.
On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

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Offline rrocket

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 09:47:51 am »
For all the issues that battery powered vehicles face, hydrogen powered ones take it to the next level.
In which way?

I read review in the past of hydrogen powered cars and they refuelled like a normal car.

The biggest knock seemed to be limited fuel stations.

It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just wondering why all the industry big shots are developing these types if they are such a train wreck

FWIW, Toyota uses 2 fuel cells from their Mirai car in their truck.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 09:54:49 am by rrocket »

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 12:00:37 pm »
Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.
Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

This is 100% correct and will likely be a significant issue for battery powered semi trucks for the foreseeable future. 

Volvo and Freightliner have already stated their upcoming EVs may have better performance numbers than their current lineups but freight capacity will be reduced due to road weight regulations.
The immediate problem I see, is cost. And to a lesser extent reliability. Diesel trucks are very reliable and go many hundred of thousand miles reliably. And if they happen to suffer a breakdown, there are thousands upon thousands of repair places. This won't be the case for Tesla.

The biggest issue (apart from freight weight) is cost. Freightliners most efficient truck costs $120,000. I've read the battery packs alone for the Tesla would cost between $250-$400,000. Then add the cost of the truck..with it being a Tesla, I'd expect that to be exorbitant. Even with fuel cost advantage (and that's debatable), you'd have to drive many, many miles merely to break even. And these aren't long haul trucks (250 miles between trips)...so that's a long ROI.

And per Musk, a diesel costs $1.50 a mile to operate...his truck (he says) will cost $1.25 per mile. But to achieve that number, the charging cost needs to be 7 cents per KwH. I'm not sure how realistic that is. And it will take several more Teslas to haul 1,000,000 pounds of cargo than it would a diesel.

Diesel trucks engine and emission equipment (DPF, SCR) are far less reliable than they used to be. The added complexity and frequently changing EPA requirements (US07, US10, US13, GHG14, 15, 16, 17) means new systems and sensors every year. Not easy to stay ahead of the relaibility curve with all these changes. 

Offline kevlar

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 06:52:30 am »
I know some may poo-poo the idea. But Toyota has been testing their hydrogen fuel cell powered truck in this same class for a couple months now. I somewhat rolled my eyes, because there's no hydrogen infrastructure. But at the same time, there's no Tesla charging infrastructure either for these trucks.

What most shocked me about this was other industry giants are also developing hydrogen fuel cell trucks in this class. Trucking industry giants Kenworth, Cummings and GM both have trucks in development as well as Nikola trucks. And UPS is moving this way too.

So if you have these large companies moving to hydrogen trucks, is it possible a hydrogen infrastructure is more feasible?

Efficiency will be the problem.    For an electric truck you have to make the batteries and charge them. And you can charge them anywhere there is electricity in quantity.
Assuming by a hydrogen truck that you mean a fuel cell then you have to 'make ' the hydrogen and store it and it is ugly stuff to store. Then build a reliable fuel cell with enough output to power the same electric motors as the electric truck has.  The details of the motors may be different but that is unimportant.
'Making'  hydrogen means unbinding the H2 from whatever  it is bound to, from H2O, from Methane CH4 or many other compounds.   That takes lots of energy.  Storing H2 means either very low temperatures or big high pressure tanks.  There is a way to store H2 in a semi metal alloy...I believe it works but I don't know more than that.
I have seen talk of gas stations that could have a natural gas pipeline and an on site H2 reformer for fuel cell vehicles.  No idea of the efficiency or what you do with the Carbon left over.


So I think it is 6 of one, half dozen of the other.       Either technology would work really well for local use vehicles such as city busses, taxis and delivery vehicles...those that have a central 'home' overnight.

the range of one of these fuel cell trucks is over 1000kms. this is why buses and trucks would be ideal start for hydrogen FCs and hydrogen networks as they can all fuel off very few stations. Nikola motors have a quick, interesting take on Tesla's truck. https://twitter.com/nikolamotor?lang=en


"Fun Battery estimate @tesla #teslasemi. 3.3 aH 4.2V 21700 stationary cell 5,000 cycle. 96S 834P (400 Volts)70 grams/cell. 80,064 cells.12,355 lbs. cells only.15,000 lb battery w/ enclosure and cooling. 1,100 kWh. 90% SOC =990 kWh = 500 miles. $1.75/ each cell = $140,112 in cells"



Offline kevlar

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 06:57:21 am »
For all the issues that battery powered vehicles face, hydrogen powered ones take it to the next level.
In which way?

I read review in the past of hydrogen powered cars and they refuelled like a normal car.

The biggest knock seemed to be limited fuel stations.

It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just wondering why all the industry big shots are developing these types if they are such a train wreck

FWIW, Toyota uses 2 fuel cells from their Mirai car in their truck.

in fact Ballard power and some of their bus manufacturers have fuel cell buses that have run over 25,000 hours without major repairs.   

"Ballard Power Systems (NASDAQ: BLDP; TSX: BLDP) today announced that a fuel cell electric bus powered by Ballard’s FCveloCity®-HD6 fuel cells has achieved a new durability record with more than 25,000 hours of revenue service. This is equivalent to operating a bus on a 14-hour daily schedule, 5-days per week for 6.9 years with no significant maintenance to the fuel cell stack, a core engine component."  This is in stop and go city driving of a London bus. 

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Offline kevlar

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2017, 06:49:53 pm »
Elon is full of it.  http://www.thedrive.com/tech/16734/sorry-tesla-fanboys-the-best-zero-emissions-semi-runs-on-fuel-cells  bloody hell this guy gets away with murder. he has a zombie army that wants desperately to believe that tesla is bringing some kind of revolution and they refuse use any kind of critical thought.

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Re: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2017, 07:49:06 pm »
PepsiCo just placed an order for 100 Tesla trucks.