Author Topic: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation  (Read 6379 times)

Offline Cord

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Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« on: March 19, 2017, 02:13:43 pm »
http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/hidden-camera-investigation-finds-most-calgary-car-dealerships-breach-consumer-rules-1.3329320

No surprises there. Industry regulation is completely toothless and dealers have no fear of breaking the rules.

Interesting thing they bring up is the "Private Sale" tactic. When my previous dealership changed ownership, the new owner immediately brought in the guy shown here on hidden camera. Exact same shtick shown except that that he portrayed himself as a "Ford affiliate" rather than working with Chrysler as shown here.

Here my PSA: If you ever hear the words "Private Sale" they should be regarded as code for "Do Not Shop Here."
"If we can just believe something then we don't have to really think for ourselves, do we?" Paul Haggis

Offline PJungnitsch

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 03:07:25 pm »
Yeah, that program reinforced all the stereotypes and fears people have. We are going to have to get a vehicle soonish, and my wife was literally scowling at the TV. The auto industry is not doing itself any favours by not getting it's house in order.

But the regulator has to regulate to keep things an even playing field.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 03:08:39 pm »
These practices go a long way to keeping me from buying a new car.  Seriously.  I just hate it so much.  Being surprised by hundreds or thousands in fees just pi$$es me off so much.

Offline revalations

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 03:57:35 pm »
It's been the same way for years. Way back when I worked for a Ford store we had a "doc fee" of $575. My job as the salesman was to explain the fee up front before the customer entered the business office. This fee covered the title, all paperwork, and charges the bank or Ford Credit may charge us for their own fees. 90% of customers had no issue and paid the fee, 10% raised hell and we'd waive it before letting the whole deal go down the tubes over it. And its true that all other big purchases carry a documentation fee, my last mortgage carried a $795 fee charged by my broker.

So those fees were not ALL profit, they do in fact pay for some necessary items the dealer provides for the customer. Our store would sell ~100+ units a month, so that $575 adds up to be a decent amount of revenue for the dealer. Take that away and they'll get it elsewhere, those fees are not going away anytime soon imo, one way or another you're going to pay.

If it were my sales department ALL FEES would be included in the price. A F150 for $39,995 would be just that plus tax. Trouble is that Joe Bob Ford down the road is going to advertise his truck for $38,995. He'll get all the uneducated customers (mostly all car shoppers) in the door, and then they'll surprise him with the fees....now he's submissive, so close to the truck he want's he'll just pay the fees and go home.

pretty clear AMVIC does not care so this practice will continue.

Offline OliverD

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 06:40:33 pm »
It's been the same way for years. Way back when I worked for a Ford store we had a "doc fee" of $575. My job as the salesman was to explain the fee up front before the customer entered the business office. This fee covered the title, all paperwork, and charges the bank or Ford Credit may charge us for their own fees. 90% of customers had no issue and paid the fee, 10% raised hell and we'd waive it before letting the whole deal go down the tubes over it. And its true that all other big purchases carry a documentation fee, my last mortgage carried a $795 fee charged by my broker.

So those fees were not ALL profit, they do in fact pay for some necessary items the dealer provides for the customer. Our store would sell ~100+ units a month, so that $575 adds up to be a decent amount of revenue for the dealer. Take that away and they'll get it elsewhere, those fees are not going away anytime soon imo, one way or another you're going to pay.

If it were my sales department ALL FEES would be included in the price. A F150 for $39,995 would be just that plus tax. Trouble is that Joe Bob Ford down the road is going to advertise his truck for $38,995. He'll get all the uneducated customers (mostly all car shoppers) in the door, and then they'll surprise him with the fees....now he's submissive, so close to the truck he want's he'll just pay the fees and go home.

pretty clear AMVIC does not care so this practice will continue.

Doc fee for mortgages makes more sense because it's being charged by the third party providing the service – can't exactly roll the fee into the price of the property.

There should be regulations regarding pricing. Just advertise one price exclusive of any taxes. I could care less about the dealer's cost of doing business – roll those expenses into the price of the car.

Emailed a dealer about a car this weekend and asked about fees. $399.99 doc fee and $299.99 fuel/detail fee.  ::)

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2017, 06:47:25 pm »
90% of customers had no issue and paid the fee, 10% raised hell and we'd waive it before letting the whole deal go down the tubes over it.

So lets give a big salute to those 90% that are too passive (that's putting it nicely) to keep from being fleeced.  My wife is one of those 90%, she'll sign anything, but she has nil buying authorization so no issues.  :rofl2:

Without those 90% it wouldn't be a piece of cake to refuse it or hide it someplace else.



Offline johngenx

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2017, 06:54:08 pm »
Oh, the list is long and ridiculous.  $400 or more for nitrogen in the tires, $500 or more for "documentation" and $500 or more for this and that and this and that.  All added to the MSRP of the car and in Alberta, typically added AFTER you've agreed to a price.  They're "oh, just a couple of things that are MANDATORY, blah blah blah."

I doubt I'll ever buy another new car as long as I live - and now dealers are doing all this with used cars too - so adios dealers.  I could barely believe the Toyota dealer I bought the Highlander from didn't spring surprise fees on me after accepting my offer.  When we bought the Corolla in 2008, the dealer was very explicit that they didn't have any fees above the MSRP save for the Toyota advertised rate for PDI/freight.  I'm not sure if they still do that (no admin/doc/etc fees) but if they don't, they're a rare dealer indeed that doesn't.

I don't mind if dealers want to sell me additional products - nope, not at all.  But arbitrary nonsensical fees just pi$$ me off and I leave.  All car buyers should do the same.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2017, 06:56:08 pm »
but she has nil buying authorization so no issues.

WTF does that mean?  You're married to a child that has no legal authority to make a major purchase involving a contract other than for the necessities of life?  Or are you as big of a jacka$$ at home as you are here?  Wow.

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2017, 07:05:12 pm »
Emailed a dealer about a car this weekend and asked about fees. $399.99 doc fee and $299.99 fuel/detail fee.

They are all going to respond like that via an email.  But unless you're in Sudbury or some other take it or leave it territory (St. John's can't be good) those 2 items and the always looming "protection/theft" thingy can be axed.  Only works if the buyer knows exactly what they want and it's a 30 minute deal much preferably with the sales manager.  No room for indecision or "test drives".

Speaking of "fuel";  only a few years ago most dealers would fill them full.  Now you see new units going over the curb with 1/2 tanks.  That right there shows you how stressed margins have become and what a sh*t show things are and the natural unpleasantness of the business.

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2017, 07:13:35 pm »
Fees, fees and more fees. Theh get you coming and going. Just watch Marketplace's show on funeral homes and how they were trying to gouge people.

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Offline ArticSteve

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2017, 07:17:51 pm »
but she has nil buying authorization so no issues.

WTF does that mean?  You're married to a child that has no legal authority to make a major purchase involving a contract other than for the necessities of life?  Or are you as big of a jacka$$ at home as you are here?  Wow.

Married 33 years, give or take one  :D and things are going great.  Wife's a major earner too.  ;D  Only has one CC card on my account.  Every month I peruse the statement and we have a brief question and answer period.   ;D

When I meet my wife in 1980 Bell Canada had disconnected her phone.  Owed $1000!  No sh*t.  Didn't even open the bills.  So under water on new car, CC cards, student loans.  She lost her spending privileges then and why ruin a good thing.  :rofl2: 

Offline sailor723

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2017, 07:30:41 pm »
I'm pretty upfront when I'm car shopping. I tell them if I make an offer it is all in + HST, ac tax and plates. I don't care how they write it up. They can sell me a car for a dollar and add 50K in fees for all I care.... it's the bottom line that matters.

The same applies to my trade if I'm going that route. Show me whatever you like. All that matters to me is the difference.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 07:34:19 pm by sailor723 »
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Offline Solstice2006

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2017, 07:31:58 pm »
but she has nil buying authorization so no issues.

WTF does that mean?  You're married to a child that has no legal authority to make a major purchase involving a contract other than for the necessities of life?  Or are you as big of a jacka$$ at home as you are here?  Wow.

Took the words right out of my mouth!  Applaud!

Offline OliverD

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2017, 07:32:39 pm »
I'm pretty upfront when I'm car shopping. I tell them if I make an offer it is all in + HST. I don't care how they write it up. They can sell me a car for a dollar and add 50K in fees for all I care.... it's the bottom line that matters.

Yeah, exactly.

Offline CanuckS2K

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2017, 07:47:24 pm »
I'm pretty upfront when I'm car shopping. I tell them if I make an offer it is all in + HST, ac tax and plates. I don't care how they write it up. They can sell me a car for a dollar and add 50K in fees for all I care.... it's the bottom line that matters.

The same applies to my trade if I'm going that route. Show me whatever you like. All that matters to me is the difference.

Pretty much the same here Graeme.  I'd rather just know the final price and that's it.  Having said that, knowing that you're getting hosed for a $300-$500 doc/admin fee really p!sses me off. 
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Offline CanuckS2K

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2017, 07:52:49 pm »
but she has nil buying authorization so no issues.

WTF does that mean?  You're married to a child that has no legal authority to make a major purchase involving a contract other than for the necessities of life?  Or are you as big of a jacka$$ at home as you are here?  Wow.

*Raises hand*.......I think I know the answer to that question.    ;D

Offline KD

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2017, 08:31:39 pm »
I wonder if the Genesis model of all-in pricing will have much of an effect on mainstream dealer practices.  Wasn't this already tried by Saturn?  I suppose it wasn't much of a threat in that case as thier cars were :censor:, but Genesis is putting out some desirable stuff at reasonable prices. 

Offline johngenx

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2017, 08:56:02 pm »

*Raises hand*.......I think I know the answer to that question.    ;D

A+


Offline Solstice2006

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2017, 08:56:23 pm »
I wonder if the Genesis model of all-in pricing will have much of an effect on mainstream dealer practices.  Wasn't this already tried by Saturn?  I suppose it wasn't much of a threat in that case as thier cars were :censor:, but Genesis is putting out some desirable stuff at reasonable prices.

Was always fond of the Aura, the Sky, the Astra, preferred the Ion over the Chevrolet Cobalt, and Pontiac G5.

Offline OliverD

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Re: Latest W5 Hidden Camera Investigation
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2017, 09:11:18 pm »
I wonder if the Genesis model of all-in pricing will have much of an effect on mainstream dealer practices.  Wasn't this already tried by Saturn?  I suppose it wasn't much of a threat in that case as thier cars were :censor:, but Genesis is putting out some desirable stuff at reasonable prices.

I thought the Saturn model was more about fixed pricing than anything else.