Topic: First Drive: 2013 Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid

[tpl]

The 2.0 is too powerful!   The whole point of a hybrid is to appear to save fossil fuels so therefore the smallest most economical internal combustion engine that can do the job. Hence the 1.4 TFSI.     They do have an appropriate diesel and I wonder...would the hybrid applied to that ( 1.6) be any more economical than just using the diesel and sacrificing some 0-60 time.

[dirtyjeffer]

while diesel engines get great fuel economy, a diesel's bread and butter is long distance travelling, not booting around in the city...using the 1.4T engine (which likely meets emission requirements without a dime of investment) is the right match here...a fuel sipping small peppy engine, with fuel saving hybrid electrics.

[kenm]

I would guess  that the electric motor is just connected to the input shaft of the DSG with some gearing to keep the motor in its efficient range when the engine is revving in its  the usual rev band for a gas engine perhaps 800 to 6500 rpm. Perhaps there is an extra clutch for the "2km as an EV" business and to disconnect the motor ( as generator) when the battery is fully charged.   

The article was very lite on the technicals.   However with Hybrids, the technicals are everything.  Something a buyer should educate themselves on prior to purchase.

Being a competitor I wish this car the very worst possible. 

I think you've nailed it; just another "lite" hybrid. The Toyota system is just a big set of planetary gears, and it's brilliantly executed, with all inputs at optimum balance for the required output.

[dkaz]

Isn't Trendline the trim level with no A/C and roll up windows?

[bombastic]

Looks like a good car. I think it will sell well. It will take some time until it gets the same recognition as Prius of course. Difficult but not impossible. Prius is too ugly and does not drive good to be in the first place for too long. Diesle Hybrid will be good for sure. Too bad our south neighbours hate it.

[Seafoam]

Looks like a good car. I think it will sell well. It will take some time until it gets the same recognition as Prius of course. Difficult but not impossible. Prius is too ugly and does not drive good to be in the first place for too long. Diesle Hybrid will be good for sure. Too bad our south neighbours hate it.

I don't  know but i'd say this car is more comparable to the camry hybrid than the prius.  The prius may be ugly to some but it does it's job well and has been reliable.
I wonder what problems will show up on this hybrid after 5 years, it is a VW afterall.

[ArticSteve]

I don't  know but i'd say this car is more comparable to the camry hybrid than the prius.

 

Exactly the same price point as the Toyota Camry Hybrid.   HELLO!

Horribly written and researched review which just goes to show ya we all suck occasionally. 

[dirtyjeffer]

Diesle Hybrid will be good for sure. Too bad our south neighbours hate it.

while Americans aren't into diesels as much as we are, the fact it isn't a diesel hybrid has nothing to do with that...i have already explained why it isn't a diesel hybrid.

[bombastic]

Dirtyjetter. You can explain logically as much as you want. In USA when they hear diesel, they will walk away without even trying the car. Hence there is no diesel hybrid presented.

[dirtyjeffer]

Dirtyjetter. You can explain logically as much as you want. In USA when they hear diesel, they will walk away without even trying the car. Hence there is no diesel hybrid presented.

i don't disagree with your first point, although they are starting to warm up to diesel's somewhat...but my point stands about the diesel hybrid...it would not be the most efficient use of a diesel...a diesel engine gets its maximum efficiency running for long periods of time, hence (partly) why they are favoured for long distance travellers who rack up tons of mileage...putting a diesel in a hybrid where it would constantly be starting and stopping would be a poor move, and likely have very little (if any) efficiency improvement over a gasoline engine used in the same application...using the 1.4T engine in this hybrid was a good move...it would be very unlikely we would see a diesel hybrid used in a main stream car...since hybrid vehicles "bread and butter" is urban commuting, and not long distance travelling, it makes very little sense to do so...if you are a long distance traveller, buy a "regular" diesel car (non-hybrid).

[whaddaiknow]

i don't disagree with your first point, although they are starting to warm up to diesel's somewhat...but my point stands about the diesel hybrid...it would not be the most efficient use of a diesel...a diesel engine gets its maximum efficiency running for long periods of time, hence (partly) why they are favoured for long distance travellers who rack up tons of mileage...putting a diesel in a hybrid where it would constantly be starting and stopping would be a poor move, and likely have very little (if any) efficiency improvement over a gasoline engine used in the same application...using the 1.4T engine in this hybrid was a good move...it would be very unlikely we would see a diesel hybrid used in a main stream car...since hybrid vehicles "bread and butter" is urban commuting, and not long distance travelling, it makes very little sense to do so...if you are a long distance traveller, buy a "regular" diesel car (non-hybrid).

I still fail to see your logic.
The hybrid works well in city traffic because it can recoup the kinetic energy by using regenerative braking. That has nothing to do with gas or diesel. It would make the diesel hybrid even more efficient. Yes, th diesel takes longer to warm up in the winter but it doesn't mean there is no other way to heat up the cabin.

[tpl]

Diesel/gas whatever.   The point is that in a parallel hybrid like the Jetta you need a carefully optimised battery size and IC engine size with of course some careful control of gearing to use the minimal amounts of fossil fuel while providing acceptable performance.    So I see that VW have decided that the 1.4 TFSI  gas engine is just right for the job.   It all has to fit in the body shell as well.

It MAY BE that the torque characteristics of a diesel make that optimisation difficult to achieve without either a oile of expensive research or a new diesel engine.  I don't know but it would not surprise me if it isn't a problem with getting 0-50km or 0-100 km acceleration to a level that is acceptable in NA with a new small diesel that could do everything else right  perhaps a bigger electric motor and battery would be needed here.

VW have a great small diesel in the LUPO which might be right if it could be certified and if it could pull a relatively enormous Jetta for of Americans even with an electric motor to help.

[dirtyjeffer]

I still fail to see your logic.
The hybrid works well in city traffic because it can recoup the kinetic energy by using regenerative braking. That has nothing to do with gas or diesel. It would make the diesel hybrid even more efficient. Yes, th diesel takes longer to warm up in the winter but it doesn't mean there is no other way to heat up the cabin.

hybrids work great in the city because of the stop and go and the engine doesn't need to run while being stuck in traffic...they also work well to (as you mentioned) capture the energy from braking, which in urban driving, is quite often...diesel engines need to run, and stay running for long periods of time...they do no like stop and go driving, and while they are still decent on fuel in the city, the 1.4T is a perfect fit for a hybrid...a diesel hybrid would make sense as a long distance touring car, but in that manner, just buy a Passat TDi, skip all the fancy electrics, and call it a day...constant starting and stopping of the diesel engine in a hybrid (in an urban setting) would not be very efficient.

[kenm]

...diesel engines need to run, and stay running for long periods of time...they do no like stop and go driving

That is an outdated myth that needs to be annihilated.

If your vehicle has a diesel engine, idling actually lowers the coolant temperature faster than shutting off the engine. In other words, switching off the engine keeps the engine warm longer. http://www.makealeap.org/idling_myth

Obviously, that statement only applies in the short term. If the engine is shut off long enough the temperature will fall below idling temperature.

Diesel hybrids are coming. Presently, they are premium (expensive) models, but the technology will likely migrate down-market. It will probably be a very long time before we see them in North America. Economics will most likely limit their appeal here, but technically speaking, there is nothing that prohibits their viability.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-03/12/peugeot-diesel-hybrid-alternative

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/30/2012-mercedes-e-300-bluetec-hybrid-quick-spin-review/

[dirtyjeffer]

if it were such a great idea, it would have already been done...VW already has clean diesel engines and they already put one of them in that car...perhaps the 2.0L doesn't fit, so maybe a smaller diesel engine would have been needed, but then that would add significant costs...how many diesel taxis do we see here (I've never seen one)?...as well, Toronto (and our city) purchased a fleet of hybrid buses a few years ago (most of which are diesel/electric)...these buses were 50% more than the price of standard diesel only buses...the batteries needed replacing after only 18 months (and were something like $50,000 a piece) and they found the fuel economy to marginally better than the diesel only buses...after their committed purchase, they went back to diesel only buses...a diesel electric hybrid, at least in its current form, is unlikely to be used as an urban hybrid...they just don't work.

[kenm]

if it were such a great idea, it would have already been done...VW already has clean diesel engines and they already put one of them in that car...perhaps the 2.0L doesn't fit, so maybe a smaller diesel engine would have been needed, but then that would add significant costs...how many diesel taxis do we see here (I've never seen one)?...as well, Toronto (and our city) purchased a fleet of hybrid buses a few years ago (most of which are diesel/electric)...these buses were 50% more than the price of standard diesel only buses...the batteries needed replacing after only 18 months (and were something like $50,000 a piece) and they found the fuel economy to marginally better than the diesel only buses...after their committed purchase, they went back to diesel only buses...a diesel electric hybrid, at least in its current form, is unlikely to be used as an urban hybrid...they just don't work.

Did you not read the links? It has, and is, being done. The battery issue you cited has nothing to do with diesel or gas......it's a battery issue. I'm really not interested in buying a city bus anytime soon, anyhow, so let's get back to cars. Did you say diesel taxi? Here you go: http://www.hybridcars.com/news/new-electric-and-diesel-london-taxi-49563.html. Checker built diesel taxis in 1968, but being confined to the good old U.S. of A., they never took off. I'm pretty sure that it's a safe bet that there are a few good old Mercedes diesels pulling "Berlin taxi" duty somewhere in the world.

[tpl]

Guelph has Jetta TDI taxis.

Toronto IIRC has some funny rules about taxis and barring a M-B e class, it is only this year that there has been a diesel car big enough for those rules so you might see the Americanized Passat TDI as a taxi there soon.

[dirtyjeffer]

Did you not read the links? It has, and is, being done. The battery issue you cited has nothing to do with diesel or gas......it's a battery issue. I'm really not interested in buying a city bus anytime soon, anyhow, so let's get back to cars.

i realize they may exist somewhere (in limited numbers), but stop and go is not the best for a consumer car diesel engine...will it work??...sure, but it likely would work similarly well with a gasoline engine as well, and you don't need to develop and certify a new diesel engine to do that, therefore saving a ton of money as well as likely appeal to more people (you know, those same people who this day refuse to buy a diesel because they are "noisy and smelly")...i am very familiar with how diesel engines, gas engines and hybrid systems work...a diesel engine in a consumer car for "city use" is not the best application.

[whaddaiknow]

Did you not read the links? It has, and is, being done. The battery issue you cited has nothing to do with diesel or gas......it's a battery issue. I'm really not interested in buying a city bus anytime soon, anyhow, so let's get back to cars.

i realize they may exist somewhere (in limited numbers), but stop and go is not the best for a consumer car diesel engine...will it work??...sure, but it likely would work similarly well with a gasoline engine as well, and you don't need to develop and certify a new diesel engine to do that, therefore saving a ton of money as well as likely appeal to more people (you know, those same people who this day refuse to buy a diesel because they are "noisy and smelly")...i am very familiar with how diesel engines, gas engines and hybrid systems work...a diesel engine in a consumer car for "city use" is not the best application.

You keep saying that over and over but always stop short explaning exactly why.
What's wrong with stop and go for a diesel?
What's wrong with "city use" of a diesel?
I'm not up to date on the intricacies of diesel vs gas engine operating conditions, so please educate me.

[dirtyjeffer]

You keep saying that over and over but always stop short explaning exactly why.
What's wrong with stop and go for a diesel?
What's wrong with "city use" of a diesel?
I'm not up to date on the intricacies of diesel vs gas engine operating conditions, so please educate me.

a diesel engine runs optimally when it is operating in its optimal temperature range (warmed up) and running in its optimal RPM range (fuel efficiency)...both of these are similar to a gasoline engine, but in colder climates, diesels do take longer to warm up...usually not an issue for a long drive on a highway (in some cases, you may want a cover for your grill to prevent too much cooling of the engine), but if you had the engine stopping and starting all the time, the engine would unlikely get to its best conditions (in terms of efficiency and economy)...i never said it wouldn't work (you can certainly do it), but it would be unlikely to return decent fuel economy...so the added cost involved in using the diesel engine would never be recouped in fuel savings, defeating the purpose of using it in the first place.

as a fan of diesel engines, there are certainly plenty of great applications for them...an urban commuter hybrid however, is not one of them..factor in the added cost of the diesel engine, the added cost in R&D and certification if a new diesel engine is to be used and it just doesn't make economical sense...yes, we would all love to drive around in VW XL-1 hybrids, that do use a diesel-electric drive train, but we most of us don't have $100,000 for it, nor would that vehicle work as a practical daily driver in our environment...it is quite probable that if you were to test this vehicle in both gas/electric and diesel/electric, you would find the fuel economy numbers to be similar, possibly even better for the gas version...it may be better for long distance driving to do a diesel/electric hybrid over the gas/electric, but then you could simply buy the diesel only version, which is already spectacular without the added complexity and cost of the electric hybrid system anyway...the primary reason for a hybrid is to improve the "city" fuel economy, and short quick trips using a "cold" diesel engine are not "fuel efficient".