Topic: Tesla Semi 300 / 500 mi range...

[me_2]

Tesla site https://www.tesla.com/semi/.
Edit: Found the official video reveal https://livestream.tesla.com
http://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatures/20171117/new-tesla-roadster-steals-electric-semis-thunder-as-both-debut/

From Model 3 Owners Club, starting @10:22 https://youtu.be/q-G_UuVZgW8

[Guy]

Walmart already ordered 15 and Loblaws 25. 

[rrocket]

Walmart already ordered 15 and Loblaws 25. 

JB Hunt too.

Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

[johngenx]

Fuel costs for long haul transports are a significant portion of operating costs, and diesel trucks are dirty in terms of many forms of pollutants.  This is perhaps the most effective use of EV tech.  Even if the GVWR/carrying capacity is lower, it will be more than made up for by reduced costs.

[bye]

Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.

[rrocket]

Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.

Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

[SKYMTL]

Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.

Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

This is 100% correct and will likely be a significant issue for battery powered semi trucks for the foreseeable future. 

Volvo and Freightliner have already stated their upcoming EVs may have better performance numbers than their current lineups but freight capacity will be reduced due to road weight regulations. 

[Blueprint]

There's tremendous potential in the electrification of heavy trucks. The amount of noise and pollution from big rigs is ridiculous, and high-torque electric motors should prove adept at moving heavy loads. And no more Brrraaaaaappppp from modded Jacob brakes. Fleets will be quick to adopt them, but indy owners like their big shiny, noisy things. That's where I see the point of the 5s 0-60 - bragging rights 

I just wish Tesla had designed a lower cab, since the huge engine / radiator space up front is now vacated.

Now the main challenge will be moving from idea to production, a classic Tesla hurdle.

[ChaosphereIX]

If there ever was an application for EV tech, it is in the transport industry. EVs would be fantastic long haul trucks and eliminate a lot of the pollution [noise and chemical] associated with them.

Companies need to get on this fast, as whoever has a viable product to market soon will get a lot of big orders.

About damn time, save the dead dinos for our weekend toys that can turn them into glorious music as we carve the back roads, not hauling crap from docks to warehouses...

[rrocket]

I know some may poo-poo the idea. But Toyota has been testing their hydrogen fuel cell powered truck in this same class for a couple months now. I somewhat rolled my eyes, because there's no hydrogen infrastructure. But at the same time, there's no Tesla charging infrastructure either for these trucks.

What most shocked me about this was other industry giants are also developing hydrogen fuel cell trucks in this class. Trucking industry giants Kenworth, Cummings and GM both have trucks in development as well as Nikola trucks. And UPS is moving this way too.

So if you have these large companies moving to hydrogen trucks, is it possible a hydrogen infrastructure is more feasible?

[rrocket]

Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.

Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

This is 100% correct and will likely be a significant issue for battery powered semi trucks for the foreseeable future. 

Volvo and Freightliner have already stated their upcoming EVs may have better performance numbers than their current lineups but freight capacity will be reduced due to road weight regulations.

The immediate problem I see, is cost. And to a lesser extent reliability. Diesel trucks are very reliable and go many hundred of thousand miles reliably. And if they happen to suffer a breakdown, there are thousands upon thousands of repair places. This won't be the case for Tesla.

The biggest issue (apart from freight weight) is cost. Freightliners most efficient truck costs $120,000. I've read the battery packs alone for the Tesla would cost between $250-$400,000. Then add the cost of the truck..with it being a Tesla, I'd expect that to be exorbitant. Even with fuel cost advantage (and that's debatable), you'd have to drive many, many miles merely to break even. And these aren't long haul trucks (250 miles between trips)...so that's a long ROI.

And per Musk, a diesel costs $1.50 a mile to operate...his truck (he says) will cost $1.25 per mile. But to achieve that number, the charging cost needs to be 7 cents per KwH. I'm not sure how realistic that is. And it will take several more Teslas to haul 1,000,000 pounds of cargo than it would a diesel.

[tpl]

I know some may poo-poo the idea. But Toyota has been testing their hydrogen fuel cell powered truck in this same class for a couple months now. I somewhat rolled my eyes, because there's no hydrogen infrastructure. But at the same time, there's no Tesla charging infrastructure either for these trucks.

What most shocked me about this was other industry giants are also developing hydrogen fuel cell trucks in this class. Trucking industry giants Kenworth, Cummings and GM both have trucks in development as well as Nikola trucks. And UPS is moving this way too.

So if you have these large companies moving to hydrogen trucks, is it possible a hydrogen infrastructure is more feasible?

Efficiency will be the problem.    For an electric truck you have to make the batteries and charge them. And you can charge them anywhere there is electricity in quantity.
Assuming by a hydrogen truck that you mean a fuel cell then you have to 'make ' the hydrogen and store it and it is ugly stuff to store. Then build a reliable fuel cell with enough output to power the same electric motors as the electric truck has.  The details of the motors may be different but that is unimportant.
'Making'  hydrogen means unbinding the H2 from whatever  it is bound to, from H2O, from Methane CH4 or many other compounds.   That takes lots of energy.  Storing H2 means either very low temperatures or big high pressure tanks.  There is a way to store H2 in a semi metal alloy...I believe it works but I don't know more than that.
I have seen talk of gas stations that could have a natural gas pipeline and an on site H2 reformer for fuel cell vehicles.  No idea of the efficiency or what you do with the Carbon left over.


So I think it is 6 of one, half dozen of the other.       Either technology would work really well for local use vehicles such as city busses, taxis and delivery vehicles...those that have a central 'home' overnight.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

For all the issues that battery powered vehicles face, hydrogen powered ones take it to the next level.

[rrocket]

For all the issues that battery powered vehicles face, hydrogen powered ones take it to the next level.

In which way?

I read review in the past of hydrogen powered cars and they refuelled like a normal car.

The biggest knock seemed to be limited fuel stations.

It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just wondering why all the industry big shots are developing these types if they are such a train wreck

FWIW, Toyota uses 2 fuel cells from their Mirai car in their truck.

[Guy]

Though reading the specs it hauls 15,000 pounds less than a typical rig.

Please elaborate.
Tesla has tested and announced performance figures based on maximum acceptable total load size.

Oh. It's a regulatory thing. I'm sure Tesla could carry more, but the regulations simply don't allow it, which are very strict (which is why they have weight stations).

Because of the significant additional weight over an ICE truck, that means they have to carry less cargo to be in compliance with the maximum vehicle weight.

This is 100% correct and will likely be a significant issue for battery powered semi trucks for the foreseeable future. 

Volvo and Freightliner have already stated their upcoming EVs may have better performance numbers than their current lineups but freight capacity will be reduced due to road weight regulations.

The immediate problem I see, is cost. And to a lesser extent reliability. Diesel trucks are very reliable and go many hundred of thousand miles reliably. And if they happen to suffer a breakdown, there are thousands upon thousands of repair places. This won't be the case for Tesla.

The biggest issue (apart from freight weight) is cost. Freightliners most efficient truck costs $120,000. I've read the battery packs alone for the Tesla would cost between $250-$400,000. Then add the cost of the truck..with it being a Tesla, I'd expect that to be exorbitant. Even with fuel cost advantage (and that's debatable), you'd have to drive many, many miles merely to break even. And these aren't long haul trucks (250 miles between trips)...so that's a long ROI.

And per Musk, a diesel costs $1.50 a mile to operate...his truck (he says) will cost $1.25 per mile. But to achieve that number, the charging cost needs to be 7 cents per KwH. I'm not sure how realistic that is. And it will take several more Teslas to haul 1,000,000 pounds of cargo than it would a diesel.

Diesel trucks engine and emission equipment (DPF, SCR) are far less reliable than they used to be. The added complexity and frequently changing EPA requirements (US07, US10, US13, GHG14, 15, 16, 17) means new systems and sensors every year. Not easy to stay ahead of the relaibility curve with all these changes. 

[Guy]

Budweiser order 40 Semi's.

https://electrek.co/2017/12/07/tesla-semi-deliver-beer-budweiser-orders-40-electric-trucks/

[Guy]

PepsiCo just placed an order for 100 Tesla trucks.

[tpl]

I know some may poo-poo the idea. But Toyota has been testing their hydrogen fuel cell powered truck in this same class for a couple months now. I somewhat rolled my eyes, because there's no hydrogen infrastructure. But at the same time, there's no Tesla charging infrastructure either for these trucks.

What most shocked me about this was other industry giants are also developing hydrogen fuel cell trucks in this class. Trucking industry giants Kenworth, Cummings and GM both have trucks in development as well as Nikola trucks. And UPS is moving this way too.

So if you have these large companies moving to hydrogen trucks, is it possible a hydrogen infrastructure is more feasible?

Efficiency will be the problem.    For an electric truck you have to make the batteries and charge them. And you can charge them anywhere there is electricity in quantity.
Assuming by a hydrogen truck that you mean a fuel cell then you have to 'make ' the hydrogen and store it and it is ugly stuff to store. Then build a reliable fuel cell with enough output to power the same electric motors as the electric truck has.  The details of the motors may be different but that is unimportant.
'Making'  hydrogen means unbinding the H2 from whatever  it is bound to, from H2O, from Methane CH4 or many other compounds.   That takes lots of energy.  Storing H2 means either very low temperatures or big high pressure tanks.  There is a way to store H2 in a semi metal alloy...I believe it works but I don't know more than that.
I have seen talk of gas stations that could have a natural gas pipeline and an on site H2 reformer for fuel cell vehicles.  No idea of the efficiency or what you do with the Carbon left over.


So I think it is 6 of one, half dozen of the other.       Either technology would work really well for local use vehicles such as city busses, taxis and delivery vehicles...those that have a central 'home' overnight.

the range of one of these fuel cell trucks is over 1000kms. this is why buses and trucks would be ideal start for hydrogen FCs and hydrogen networks as they can all fuel off very few stations. Nikola motors have a quick, interesting take on Tesla's truck. https://twitter.com/nikolamotor?lang=en


"Fun Battery estimate @tesla #teslasemi. 3.3 aH 4.2V 21700 stationary cell 5,000 cycle. 96S 834P (400 Volts)70 grams/cell. 80,064 cells.12,355 lbs. cells only.15,000 lb battery w/ enclosure and cooling. 1,100 kWh. 90% SOC =990 kWh = 500 miles. $1.75/ each cell = $140,112 in cells"

A range of 1000KMs for a fuel cell bus/truck/taxi  means that either they can be long distance vehicles or , for  a city bus , only have to refuel every few days.  Either way the number of fueling station/hydrogen production stations can be limited .    I think the most efficient fuel cells are hydrogen/oxygen  and IIRC Ballard have a good Hydrogen/air fuel cell.   But when you have just a few fueling stations you can easily store oxygen as well.

So perhaps fuel cells for commercial use and batteries for cars would be the killer combination.

[bye]

At $2M for a hydrogen filling station, vs $250K for an 8 bay Tesla supercharging site, that's 10x the amount of cars that can charge at a time.  Hydrogen is far slower to refuel compared to gas, and the equipment is not designed for many repeated refuels.

Tesla can deploy mega charging for roughly same price as hydrogen station, yet the mega charger doesn't need to use natural gas converted fuel with far higher CO2 output compared to electricity on the grids in Ontario and California where the bulk of the orders have been placed for the Tesla semi truck.

[rrocket]

At $2M for a hydrogen filling station, vs $250K for an 8 bay Tesla supercharging site, that's 10x the amount of cars that can charge at a time.  Hydrogen is far slower to refuel compared to gas, and the equipment is not designed for many repeated refuels.

Tesla can deploy mega charging for roughly same price as hydrogen station, yet the mega charger doesn't need to use natural gas converted fuel with far higher CO2 output compared to electricity on the grids in Ontario and California where the bulk of the orders have been placed for the Tesla semi truck.

We're talking about trucks, so $250K for a Supercharger is a moot point.  It doesn't even enter into the equation.  You need to compare to a (vaporware) Megacharger.

And I'll use your argument....a hydrogen fill compared to a Megacharger (or Supercharger) is significantly quicker.  I've read 10-15 minutes...significantly quicker than a Tesla truck.  And the hydrogen filling station actually exists...for real.