Topic: Comparison Test: 2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid vs 2013 Volkswagen Golf Wagon TDI

[TopGun]

Ford came right out of the box bragging that the C-Max and FFH would get 47/47 MPG.   It was in every TV spot they ran.  They now make no reference to the actual mpg of either car in their commercials.  It was an out and out lie.  As the host of Autoline Detroit stated in his show last week it's done a lot of damage to the brand.

This is the "echo-chamber" stuff that really gets my shorts twisted on this forum - you repeat things often enough and consistently enough, then people start to believe it.  I will have none of it - There is no "out and out lie", there was no "promise".  If you believe you can judge intent, then I can't help you.

If you wish to discuss how the real-world vs. rated might damage their brand, that's an insightful comment that is worth discussing AS.  If you are talking about Autoline Daily of Jan 16th, I did hear how Ford announced the EPA is going to change their rating...but I missed how they discussed damage to the brand.  Do I have the wrong show?

Ironically, on that same show, they did reveal that Ford is tops in two customer loyalty studies.  http://www.autoline.tv/daily/?p=24932

FORD HAS HIGHEST LOYALTY
One of the ways to measure how much customers love your products is to track how many of the come back to your store and buy from you again. And in automotive terms, it sure looks like Ford is doing the best job. It just came out on top on two separate measures of customer loyalty...

[HeliDriver]

I agree with Phil, measuring fuel consumption using "kms per litre" makes more sense, and it's easier to calculate as well.
Our present method is like saying, how many gallons do you burn every 100 miles?

Gallons/100 miles is actually a far more useful parameter, even if we're not familiar with the numbers (like we are with mpg).
Fuel economy (variable volume of fuel required to cover a prescribed distance) is a parameter that can be applied more easily than mileage (or "kilometerage", variable distance covered by a prescribed volume of fuel).  I never stick 1 gallon (or 1L) in my vehicle and see how far I can go, so "mileage" is less relevant than fuel economy (i.e., how many litres of gas will it take to cover 500 km).

Of course, it's easy to convert mileage into fuel economy and vice versa, and maybe it would be helpful for our increasingly innumerate society to actually have to THINK about numbers again (and what they mean, and how to apply them).

I drive a certain number of kms per year and want to know how much fuel I'm going to burn (and how much it's going to cost me): L/100 kms is what I need to know. Maybe when I'm retired and counting my pennies, I'll say to myself "I can only afford to spend $1,500 on gas this year: I wonder how far I can drive?" That's when mpg might be useful.

Km/L is just useless: nobody knows what you're talking about (and rightly so, IMO). Save it for posts about Japanese cars on a Japanese forum.

[ArticSteve]

This is the "echo-chamber" stuff that really gets my shorts twisted on this forum - you repeat things often enough and consistently enough, then people start to believe it.  I will have none of it - There is no "out and out lie", there was no "promise".  If you believe you can judge intent, then I can't help you.

All Ford Hybrid TV ADS up until about 10 days ago had a Ford voice over PROMISING 47/47.  "Better than Camry, better than Prius". 

ATTN:!!!   Same TV ADS, but GONE are any references to 47/47.  Not even a little "EPA" number hidden off to the corner of the screen.  In place is "best mileage of any mid sized car in America". 

FORD LIED.  Those Hybrids get 37/37 and Ford knew it.  They're now getting sued, rightfully so.  Year end sales will be way under forecasts.

If you wish to discuss how the real-world vs. rated might damage their brand, that's an insightful comment that is worth discussing AS.  If you are talking about Autoline Daily of Jan 16th, I did hear how Ford announced the EPA is going to change their rating...but I missed how they discussed damage to the brand.  Do I have the wrong show?

Autoline DETROIT.  PBS.  Best show for industry info and trends.

[Jaeger]

This is the "echo-chamber" stuff that really gets my shorts twisted on this forum - you repeat things often enough and consistently enough, then people start to believe it.

You mean like endlessly bleating about the supposedly massive anti-domestic bias on the forum - hoping that perpetual repetition makes people start to believe it?  That kind of thing?

[Flinter]

Interesting article here from consumer reports that might shed some light on the discrepancy between EPA and real world fuel economy on the c-max.

Ford's system can operate in full-electric mode at speeds up to 62 mph. That ability can greatly improve fuel economy in the EPA highway cycle, since most of the government's simulated driving test measures gasoline used while driving at lower speeds. But it won't help at all in the highway portion of the Consumer Reports fuel-economy test, which measures gas consumption at 65 mph. The gap between these results may disappoint those who regularly cruise on the highway at speeds greater than 62 mph.

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/12/why-do-fords-new-c-max-fusion-hybrids-ace-the-epa-government-fuel-economy-tests.html

This might help explain the difference in highway ratings but I'm not sure about the city ratings.

[TopGun]

This is the "echo-chamber" stuff that really gets my shorts twisted on this forum - you repeat things often enough and consistently enough, then people start to believe it.

You mean like endlessly bleating about the supposedly massive anti-domestic bias on the forum - hoping that perpetual repetition makes people start to believe it?  That kind of thing?

You guys are doing a good job of proving just that.

This time specifically, I do mean endlessly bleating untruths to which you have no response for - you've not responded to this one.

Hmm.... talk about being singularly unqualified to lecture others about having blinders on. 

You have a example this time?  How are my comments inaccurate?

[TopGun]

FORD LIED.  Those Hybrids get 37/37 and Ford knew it.  They're now getting sued, rightfully so.  Year end sales will be way under forecasts.

Absolutely, totally and completely hopeless.

[Jaeger]

This is the "echo-chamber" stuff that really gets my shorts twisted on this forum - you repeat things often enough and consistently enough, then people start to believe it.

You mean like endlessly bleating about the supposedly massive anti-domestic bias on the forum - hoping that perpetual repetition makes people start to believe it?  That kind of thing?

You guys are doing a good job of proving just that.

This time specifically, I do mean endlessly bleating untruths to which you have no response for - you've not responded to this one....

I thought I just did provide an example of the "echo chamber" - that you only seem to find objectionable when you're not the one generating the echo(or more likely in Thelma and Louise-like tandem with Erik).  I just find it a bit... well... inconsistent, that you complain of the very activity in whch you routinely engage.  It's like you are actually completely unaware that you stand in a big glass house.  You just happily grab another rock and toss away.

[rrocket]

It seems that Erik and TopGun mostly contribute to this forum when someone is being critical of a domestic brand.  Maybe I'm wrong...but that's my perception.  And it's fine if they do that...no rule that says they can't.

But then calling other people bleating fan-boys when they are essentially doing the same thing is...puzzling.

That's just my opinion..and you know what they say about those...

[Ace]

I agree with Phil, measuring fuel consumption using "kms per litre" makes more sense, and it's easier to calculate as well.
Our present method is like saying, how many gallons do you burn every 100 miles?

Gallons/100 miles is actually a far more useful parameter, even if we're not familiar with the numbers (like we are with mpg).
Fuel economy (variable volume of fuel required to cover a prescribed distance) is a parameter that can be applied more easily than mileage (or "kilometerage", variable distance covered by a prescribed volume of fuel).  I never stick 1 gallon (or 1L) in my vehicle and see how far I can go, so "mileage" is less relevant than fuel economy (i.e., how many litres of gas will it take to cover 500 km).

Of course, it's easy to convert mileage into fuel economy and vice versa, and maybe it would be helpful for our increasingly innumerate society to actually have to THINK about numbers again (and what they mean, and how to apply them).

I drive a certain number of kms per year and want to know how much fuel I'm going to burn (and how much it's going to cost me): L/100 kms is what I need to know. Maybe when I'm retired and counting my pennies, I'll say to myself "I can only afford to spend $1,500 on gas this year: I wonder how far I can drive?" That's when mpg might be useful.

Km/L is just useless: nobody knows what you're talking about (and rightly so, IMO). Save it for posts about Japanese cars on a Japanese forum.

I still find myself occasionally calculating in mpg, maybe because I drive in the US quite often. Have fun convincing americans that it would be better to use "gp100m" to calculate their fuel usage.

[Jaeger]

It seems that Erik and TopGun mostly contribute to this forum when someone is being critical of a domestic brand.  Maybe I'm wrong...but that's my perception.  And it's fine if they do that...no rule that says they can't.

But then calling other people bleating fan-boys when they are essentially doing the same thing is...puzzling.

That's just my opinion..and you know what they say about those...

It's not just your perception. And yes, the puzzling aspect you reference is what I had been addressing.

And it's puzzling in great measure because both guys have a lot more to contribute. But they choose this.

[rrocket]

And it's puzzling in great measure because both guys have a lot more to contribute. But they choose this.

For sure....both very smart individuals IMO.  I've also met TG before.....he came to the autoshow with IQ and I.  Tested my Supra and her IS as well.  All around great guy.  Have never met Erik in person..but I like him too.