Author Topic: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario  (Read 16172 times)

Offline No H2O

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2023, 12:34:41 pm »
It seems odd that while BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, and Jeep were not fined for similar violations...

And Cummins and one Japanese manufacturer whose name I cannot recall; was it Nissan? The latter does not ring a bell.
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Offline No H2O

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2023, 12:47:06 pm »
As usual the only loser is the taxpayer.

As always. We still live in the times of the Kings and Queens. Ever wonder how they got so rich?  :think:

And then you have to wonder how long they will stay in business in Canada when you have CATL in China who supplies and does battery developement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmjUZSY7RV0

Perhaps ol JT "the budget will balance itself" was handling the negotiations?

 :rofl2: from a guy who flunked out of university. Its a good thing he had that last name or nobody would know him.

And he wrote off $6.3 billion in loans of which $2.6B was to Chrysler. I sure hope he had lots of KY jelly, because he sure needed it.

Offline warp

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2023, 04:13:15 pm »
So this $13 billion is for ongoing subsidizing of battery production to the tune of $35/kwh. If instead of taxing gasoline the Government  subsidizes gas to the tune of 35 cents a liter, we will be paying ~70 cents a liter now. Despite this no tax and generous subsidy element folks are still lukewarm to EVs.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 04:15:40 pm by warp »

Offline EV-Light

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2023, 04:16:10 pm »
So this $13 billion is for ongoing subsidizing of battery production to the tune of $35/kwh. If instead of taxing gasoline the Government  subsidizes gas to the tune of 35 cents a liter, we will be paying ~70 cents a liter now. Despite this no tax and generous subsidy element folks are still lukewarm to EVs.
…gas is already subsided


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Offline warp

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2023, 04:19:21 pm »
So this $13 billion is for ongoing subsidizing of battery production to the tune of $35/kwh. If instead of taxing gasoline the Government  subsidizes gas to the tune of 35 cents a liter, we will be paying ~70 cents a liter now. Despite this no tax and generous subsidy element folks are still lukewarm to EVs.
…gas is already subsided


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As far as I know, at least in Ontario, there is a Federal Tax of 10c/liter, a provincial tax of 14.7c/liter, a carbon tax of 11.2 cents a liter and HST of 13% on all that. Where is the subsidy?

Again as far as I know, the current cost of production of EV batteries is about $130/kwh, I think these are US dollars. And this cost of production is being subsidized in the proposed VW battery plant to the tune of CAD 35/kwh. Is there any comparable data where the Government of Canada gives money to the oil and gas industry such that on a net basis the Oil and Gas Industry takes in more in subsidies than what it pays in taxes?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 04:23:11 pm by warp »

Offline EV-Light

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2023, 08:17:16 pm »
So this $13 billion is for ongoing subsidizing of battery production to the tune of $35/kwh. If instead of taxing gasoline the Government  subsidizes gas to the tune of 35 cents a liter, we will be paying ~70 cents a liter now. Despite this no tax and generous subsidy element folks are still lukewarm to EVs.
…gas is already subsided


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As far as I know, at least in Ontario, there is a Federal Tax of 10c/liter, a provincial tax of 14.7c/liter, a carbon tax of 11.2 cents a liter and HST of 13% on all that. Where is the subsidy?

Again as far as I know, the current cost of production of EV batteries is about $130/kwh, I think these are US dollars. And this cost of production is being subsidized in the proposed VW battery plant to the tune of CAD 35/kwh. Is there any comparable data where the Government of Canada gives money to the oil and gas industry such that on a net basis the Oil and Gas Industry takes in more in subsidies than what it pays in taxes?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/fossil-fuel-subsidies-expaliner-1.6371411


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Offline ArticSteve

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2023, 08:21:56 pm »
On the surface it looks like the Federal and Ontario up front cash is 1 Billion.  An ultra drop in the bucket to what they've been spending the last few years.

However, this only works if they can import these batteries into the USA in the future as that country starts to implode politically.  Trump is actually looking like the GOP choice and perhaps the next President so Canada and that VW plant will be SOL.

Offline rrocket

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2023, 09:04:33 pm »
So this $13 billion is for ongoing subsidizing of battery production to the tune of $35/kwh. If instead of taxing gasoline the Government  subsidizes gas to the tune of 35 cents a liter, we will be paying ~70 cents a liter now. Despite this no tax and generous subsidy element folks are still lukewarm to EVs.
…gas is already subsided


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As far as I know, at least in Ontario, there is a Federal Tax of 10c/liter, a provincial tax of 14.7c/liter, a carbon tax of 11.2 cents a liter and HST of 13% on all that. Where is the subsidy?

Again as far as I know, the current cost of production of EV batteries is about $130/kwh, I think these are US dollars. And this cost of production is being subsidized in the proposed VW battery plant to the tune of CAD 35/kwh. Is there any comparable data where the Government of Canada gives money to the oil and gas industry such that on a net basis the Oil and Gas Industry takes in more in subsidies than what it pays in taxes?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/fossil-fuel-subsidies-expaliner-1.6371411


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I'm ok "subsidizing" something that's approx. 10% GDP along with the hundreds of thousands (millions? ) of direct and indirect jobs.

A single EV battery plant? Not so much. Oh..and remember. No only is the govt subsidizing the plant, but they're also subsidizing everyone who buys an EV battery.

Oh..and Canada subsidizes electricity to the tune of $3 billion per year.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2023, 09:16:10 pm by rrocket »
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Offline Guy

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Offline ArticSteve

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2023, 09:40:57 pm »
That is a hilarious Climate Nutcase piece.  Almost all of the "subsidies" stems from the Trans Mountain pipeline which is a classic Liberal boondoggle.

Falls to mention the 100s of Billions of royalties that Ottawa has extracted over the decades and will continue to extract for the next 30 years.  ;D

Offline rrocket

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2023, 10:53:35 pm »
Which is just a fraction of subsidies to the oil and gas industry.  [emoji14]

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/canada-spent-over-15-b-financial-support-for-oil-gas-industry-this-year-report-124413291.html#:~:text=Canada's%20federal%20government%20has%20committed,for%20the%20emissions%2Dintensive%20sector.
Once again...the contribution to the economy, GDP, employment, etc...

IMO those subsidies are well earned.

But a virtue signaling battery plant? Not so much....

Offline ktm525

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2023, 11:28:14 am »
I am in the O&G industry and have never received a federal subsidy although I would love some. Please pet me know how I can get my hands on it? As previously mentioned these figures are from the TMX debacle where as soon as government is involved the costs balloon 20+ billion. This money is mostly being pushed towards first nations to get them onside.



Offline warp

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2023, 11:29:10 am »
The criteria for companies operating in the US to receive subsidies in the EV industry, whether batteries or autos is spelled out in the Inflation Reduction Act. So US federal subsidies can be claimed by any company which meets the criteria and definitions as laid down in the Act. In addition individual states can provide additional subsidies to get a company to locate a plant in that state. By contrast in Canada a specific agreement has been reached with VW and the benefits given to VW are not available to any other company. That is the opposite of transparency but is not surprising given the opaque nature of the operations of the present Government.

Also the strict definition of a subsidy is one that results in a reduction in the actual cost of production e.g. if oil is selling at $80/barrel and the Government provides a subsidy of $35/barrel, then the effective cost is reduced by that amount. But if oil is selling for $80/barrel and Governments at all levels are taxing gasoline such that the effective tax per 160 liter barrel is $80 and then the Government grants a reduction of $10/barrel in those taxes, then I would define that as a tax rebate, not a subsidy because the Government is still collecting $70/barrel in taxes. Defenders of EV and by definition those who attack the Oil and Gas Industry muddy the waters by conflating any tax rebate as a "subsidy", even though on a net basis the Government is collecting hundreds of billions of dollars from the industry. In contrast Governments are net providers of funds to the EV industry via subsidies.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2023, 11:37:16 am by warp »

Offline rrocket

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2023, 02:27:04 pm »


The criteria for companies operating in the US to receive subsidies in the EV industry, whether batteries or autos is spelled out in the Inflation Reduction Act. So US federal subsidies can be claimed by any company which meets the criteria and definitions as laid down in the Act.

I also thought that was stupid.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce global warming, then that should be the goal.

It shouldn't matter who makes the EV or where it comes from. The goal should be getting as many as possible into consumer hands. The environment certainly doesn't care if the EV came from US, Canada or Germany.

Instead this act just brings more red tape.

Offline EV-Light

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2023, 03:46:44 pm »


The criteria for companies operating in the US to receive subsidies in the EV industry, whether batteries or autos is spelled out in the Inflation Reduction Act. So US federal subsidies can be claimed by any company which meets the criteria and definitions as laid down in the Act.

I also thought that was stupid.

If the ultimate goal is to reduce global warming, then that should be the goal.

It shouldn't matter who makes the EV or where it comes from. The goal should be getting as many as possible into consumer hands. The environment certainly doesn't care if the EV came from US, Canada or Germany.

Instead this act just brings more red tape.
It’s brilliant - we want to reduce global warming but not by making China even richer…


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Offline rrocket

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2023, 06:43:53 pm »

It’s brilliant - we want to reduce global warming but not by making China even richer…




Well, then your ultimate goal isn't climate change.  The climate doesn't care where improved air quality comes from. And THAT should be the ultimate goal. As many EVs replacing ICE as possible. Get as many EVs into the hands of consumers as possible. But that's not what this will do.

And this also punishes Japanese and European manufacturers.

Or in this case, rewards a company that knowingly and actively sought to undermine emissions and contribute to climate change. Oh..and kill people as a result.

No surprise...just more virtue signaling here.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2023, 06:53:23 pm by rrocket »

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2023, 09:01:33 pm »
This "climate" driven transition in this huge cold country is nothing more than a political ploy.  Canada can no longer compete in all things technology unless governments subsidize it to ridiculous levels by borrowing to sustain the subsidy.

The more debt this country takes on at this point is history is nothing more than another rung down the economic latter permanently. 

Inflation in Argentina, a country that had everything, has an inflation rate of 100% because of debt.

Canada can do jack shite about gobal warming with it's share of world population at .48%   

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2023, 08:18:58 am »

Offline Allen

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2023, 12:38:03 pm »

Canada can do jack shite about gobal warming with it's share of world population at .48%   

 :iagree: 100%

Offline No H2O

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Re: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2023, 12:58:59 pm »
Canada can no longer compete in all things technology unless governments subsidize it to ridiculous levels by borrowing to sustain the subsidy.

The more debt this country takes on at this point is history is nothing more than another rung down the economic latter permanently.

How very true on all counts, but then we live in a society that borrows for everything. I know people that borrowed for a vacation. Yeah of course I borrowed when I got out of school, for my first car. After that I paid for them in cash because I am too poor to make interest payments to banks.

Canada can do jack shite about gobal warming with it's share of world population at .48%   

Amazingly many people cannot figure that out be it those with or without a science back ground.