Topic: New VW Battery Plant in Ontario

[rrocket]

https://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/news/volkswagen-to-build-ev-battery-plant-in-ontario-1.19365274

[No H2O]

Yet at 3:59 in the attched video, "VW published an honest study" on EV carbon dioxide emissions. And after 6 years (about 120,000 km), how has the battery capacity dropped and therefore the range dropped on that original factory fitted battery. I wonder if anyone would replace the battery when the vehicle is 8 or 10 years old?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2HneqfZGsM

[Ontariodriver]

https://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/news/volkswagen-to-build-ev-battery-plant-in-ontario-1.19365274

Didn't you post about this already? 

[rrocket]

https://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/news/volkswagen-to-build-ev-battery-plant-in-ontario-1.19365274

Didn't you post about this already? 

Yea...in March.

[Ontariodriver]

https://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/news/volkswagen-to-build-ev-battery-plant-in-ontario-1.19365274

Didn't you post about this already? 

Yea...in March.

So really this could be one thread. LOl. Ok. 

[rrocket]

https://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/news/volkswagen-to-build-ev-battery-plant-in-ontario-1.19365274

Didn't you post about this already? 

Yea...in March.

So really this could be one thread. LOl. Ok. 

I have no idea what you're talking about??

This is the one thread?

[EV Dan]

Yet at 3:59 in the attched video, "VW published an honest study" on EV carbon dioxide emissions. And after 6 years (about 120,000 km), how has the battery capacity dropped and therefore the range dropped on that original factory fitted battery. I wonder if anyone would replace the battery when the vehicle is 8 or 10 years old?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2HneqfZGsM

Next topic these guys need to argue is why those golf carts, and the vacuums, and the power tools, and the shavers should all be powered by "dirty" lithium cells. Maybe go 2-stroke on some of them? 

There is constant progress in Li-ion chemistry. Tesla and others are now moving to Li-Fe cells which are low/free of nickel, cobalt, manganese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

Solid state batteries are not far off.

[No H2O]

There is constant progress in Li-ion chemistry.

I know since I keep informed about batteries in general. I worked in a government battery lab and the fact that I know something about batteries and charging systems might explain why I get 16 and 14 years out of a "conventional lead acid battery" (not a fancy AGM or Lithium battery) in my vehicles.

But as everybody who owns an EV, they continue to think they are a "zero emissions" vehicle as the Nissan nameplate on the back of a Leaf claims. Pure BS of course. Electricity production (coal, nuclear, wind, solar), battery production and disposal and other factors.

Why It's So Hard To Recycle Electric-Car Batteries | World Wide Waste (done by a recycling plant)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyDoOcBMAHw

Now I never took a course in human behavioral science, but I do know one thing about humans, they hate looking into the mirror to face some facts that do not fit their agenda (governments do that all the time).

I might buy an EV when it makes financial sense and is practical (charge time, range, battery long term life as in 12+ years and still have the same range).

I just did an out the door price comparison of a base Tesla 3 (where I included the $5000 rebate) to another ICE base vehicle in the same size class. The ICE vehicle got me over 8 years of free gas (based on 20,000 km per year, fuel efficiency and the present cost of gas) till I reached the out the door price of the Tesla 3 and that EV owner still needed to charge it for that same time period. I could have looked at a Leaf, but that would have made no difference financially.

No thanks!

[Allen]

I agree , there is zero business case for an EV

[rrocket]

I agree , there is zero business case for an EV

This probably makes sense.

https://jalopnik.com/cheap-byd-seagull-could-become-chinas-bestselling-ev-1850353970

[No H2O]

I agree , there is zero business case for an EV

Maybe, when they have double as many charging stations (with at least 8 charge ports each) as gas stations out there.

The friend of someone I know was between Toronto and Montreal. By the time he finally got to a charge port due to other EVs charging and then charged his car up, it took him 2 hours 45 minutes. Rare I am sure, but I can fill my or any car up ahead of me in under 5 minutes.

EVs make perfect sense as a second car (if you can afford it), delivery vehicles and taxis in cities, provided of course they make financial sense for those running a business and batteries last long term.

[Ontariodriver]

If it's anything like in the UK, electric vehicle charging at motorway service stations can cost up to £20 more than refueling with traditional petrol or diesel. As EVs become more mainstream, I can foresee similar shenanigans happening elsewhere. Unfortunately, the infrastructure for electric charging simply isn't up to par yet, and Canada's plan to restrict car ice sales starting in I think 2025 may face some challenges as a result. 

[me_2]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/volkswagen-subsidies-stthomas-1.6816824 
"Federal government giving Volkswagen up to $13B in subsidies to secure St. Thomas EV battery plant"

[Ontariodriver]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/volkswagen-subsidies-stthomas-1.6816824 
"Federal government giving Volkswagen up to $13B in subsidies to secure St. Thomas EV battery plant"

Isn't this like rewarding Volkswagen for their emission scandal? Let's not forget what's really going on here: the company knowingly tampered with emissions for years. And what does the government do? They give them billions in benefits. With all the problems we have going on, it's disheartening to see such a company being rewarded

Volkswagen, was involved in a major emissions scandal in 2015, in which the company was found to have installed "defeat devices" in their diesel engines that allowed them to cheat emissions tests. This led to the recall of millions of vehicles worldwide, as well as lawsuits and fines. As a result of the scandal, VW had to pay billions of dollars in fines and settlements. The company also faced a significant drop in sales and reputation damage, leading to changes in management and a shift towards electric vehicles. In addition, several executives were charged and convicted of crimes related to the scandal, including conspiracy to defraud the United States, wire fraud, and violations of the Clean Air Act.

[No H2O]

Isn't this like rewarding Volkswagen for their emission scandal?

But isn't it strange that when an Asian and American company did likewise, they weren't treated or fined like VW.

[warp]

So the maximum possible subsidy is $ 13 billion say over 10 years. And the estimate is 2000 to 3000 direct jobs with an additional 2000 indirect jobs via suppliers. So that works out to ~$430K per job per year as a subsidy to VW and if you include the indirect jobs for say a total of 5000 jobs, then the subsidy works out to ~$260K per year. So the question is, how much money is VW itself putting into this plant?

For reference Ford is investing $3.5 billion US into it's EV battery plant in Michigan and creating 2500 jobs.

[Ontariodriver]

Isn't this like rewarding Volkswagen for their emission scandal?

But isn't it strange that when an Asian and American company did likewise, they weren't treated or fined like VW.

 2020, Daimler agreed to pay over $2 billion to settle allegations that it installed software to cheat emissions tests on diesel vehicles. It seems odd that while BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, and Jeep were not fined for similar violations, they also did not receive any benefits or rewards from the Government. On the other hand, Volkswagen not only received government benefits but also managed to come out on top. It appears to be a win-win situation for VW.

[ktm525]

So the maximum possible subsidy is $ 13 billion say over 10 years. And the estimate is 2000 to 3000 direct jobs with an additional 2000 indirect jobs via suppliers. So that works out to ~$430K per job per year as a subsidy to VW and if you include the indirect jobs for say a total of 5000 jobs, then the subsidy works out to ~$260K per year. So the question is, how much money is VW itself putting into this plant?

For reference Ford is investing $3.5 billion US into it's EV battery plant in Michigan and creating 2500 jobs.

As usual the only loser is the taxpayer. Perhaps ol JT "the budget will balance itself" was handling the negotiations?

[warp]

So the maximum possible subsidy is $ 13 billion say over 10 years. And the estimate is 2000 to 3000 direct jobs with an additional 2000 indirect jobs via suppliers. So that works out to ~$430K per job per year as a subsidy to VW and if you include the indirect jobs for say a total of 5000 jobs, then the subsidy works out to ~$260K per year. So the question is, how much money is VW itself putting into this plant?

For reference Ford is investing $3.5 billion US into it's EV battery plant in Michigan and creating 2500 jobs.

As usual the only loser is the taxpayer. Perhaps ol JT "the budget will balance itself" was handling the negotiations?

On the Ford EV battery plant the other piece of news I read is that the State of Michigan has voted for a subsidy of US 1.3 billion for that plant. That ratio of Ford's investment to the subsidy amount makes some sense 3.5 billion from Ford to 1.3 billion from Michigan. All the news releases here only talk about the Canadian subsidy, there is no  mention at all of how much investment is being made by VW itself. Oh well, as they they, " A fool and his money are soon parted".

[rrocket]

So the maximum possible subsidy is $ 13 billion say over 10 years. And the estimate is 2000 to 3000 direct jobs with an additional 2000 indirect jobs via suppliers. So that works out to ~$430K per job per year as a subsidy to VW and if you include the indirect jobs for say a total of 5000 jobs, then the subsidy works out to ~$260K per year. So the question is, how much money is VW itself putting into this plant?

For reference Ford is investing $3.5 billion US into it's EV battery plant in Michigan and creating 2500 jobs.

As usual the only loser is the taxpayer. Perhaps ol JT "the budget will balance itself" was handling the negotiations?

On the Ford EV battery plant the other piece of news I read is that the State of Michigan has voted for a subsidy of US 1.3 billion for that plant. That ratio of Ford's investment to the subsidy amount makes some sense 3.5 billion from Ford to 1.3 billion from Michigan. All the news releases here only talk about the Canadian subsidy, there is no  mention at all of how much investment is being made by VW itself. Oh well, as they they, " A fool and his money are soon parted".

$7 billion by VW.

So Canada is paying twice what VW is through subsidies.

More numbers here:

https://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/news/industry-minister-defends-canada-s-13b-volkswagen-battery-plant-subsidy-plans-1.19559562