Topic: Favouring style over outward visibility has to stop.

[HeliDriver]

To me, this argument is akin to the provision of driver's aides...

Take the backup camera - we've debated this time and time again.  On the one hand, many of you say, "it's not necessary.  I can back up just fine."  Many admit that, especially with hooking up a trailer, the camera helps.  Many admit that it's nice to know that nothing is behind the car (like a child running behind).  Many admit that they're useful for precision parking.

Of course, there's also the argument that people now are so lazy that they simply rely on the backup camera and don't even bother turning their heads or looking where they are backing up.  No doubt that's true - have incidents involving reversing increased or decreased over time though?

The consensus is that the feature is merely a feature, not mandatory, and backing into things is still the fault of the driver when it happens.  I agree.

But why would thick A-pillars or other contributors to poor outward visibility not be contributory in some way?  How is it acceptable to drive a car while the ability to view the driver's surroundings are impaired?  How is that, in principle, different from any other type of impaired driving?  If one cannot adequately see out of the car, then one cannot make sound judgment.  I agree that a thick A-pillar simply means that a driver needs to shift his/her view to ensure that the way is clear. 

In reality, the majority of the driving population is quite lazy and won't do that.  Other times, momentary lapses of judgment happen.  Why is it unacceptable for me to argue that style over function is going too far such that it is unfortunately making bad drivers worse?

This has nothing to do with style. Do you really think manufacturers are making the A-pillars bigger because it looks good?

http://wardsauto.com/news-analysis/new-pillars-enhance-safety-impede-visibility

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Toyota kind of doubled down on the poor rearward visibility of the Vibtrix when it did the C-HR.

[Noto]

This has nothing to do with style. Do you really think manufacturers are making the A-pillars bigger because it looks good?

http://wardsauto.com/news-analysis/new-pillars-enhance-safety-impede-visibility

I was referring to high belt lines and C-pillars when discussing styling.  The accident posted above is not affected by the rear styling, for sure, but my point is that poor outward visibility is bad and thick A-pillars make outward visibility worse.

...your own posted article states:

These expanding A-pillars designed for improved safety ironically pose a hazard to pedestrians and bicyclists, who easily disappear from the view of a driver making a left turn at a stop sign in a residential neighborhood.

The problem becomes compounded in a growing number of vehicles, especially coupes such as the Chevrolet Camaro and Ford Mustang with high beltlines, low roofs and shallow windows.

“The analysis showed that geometry of the A-pillar, over the range observed in vehicles, has a substantial effect on the size and position of the most obscured regions of the intersection relative to the vehicle trajectory,” Reed writes in the report.

“For left turns, the most highly obscured zone is immediately to the left of the vehicle path at the entrance to the intersection departure lane. In a typical turn, a pedestrian standing at this location would not be visible from the normal driver eye locations for a substantial percentage of the turn.”

[HeliDriver]

Styling, safety, whatever. IMO, it's all been downhill from here:



 

[tooscoops]

To me, this argument is akin to the provision of driver's aides...

Take the backup camera - we've debated this time and time again.  On the one hand, many of you say, "it's not necessary.  I can back up just fine."  Many admit that, especially with hooking up a trailer, the camera helps.  Many admit that it's nice to know that nothing is behind the car (like a child running behind).  Many admit that they're useful for precision parking.

Of course, there's also the argument that people now are so lazy that they simply rely on the backup camera and don't even bother turning their heads or looking where they are backing up.  No doubt that's true - have incidents involving reversing increased or decreased over time though?

The consensus is that the feature is merely a feature, not mandatory, and backing into things is still the fault of the driver when it happens.  I agree.

But why would thick A-pillars or other contributors to poor outward visibility not be contributory in some way?  How is it acceptable to drive a car while the ability to view the driver's surroundings are impaired?  How is that, in principle, different from any other type of impaired driving?  If one cannot adequately see out of the car, then one cannot make sound judgment.  I agree that a thick A-pillar simply means that a driver needs to shift his/her view to ensure that the way is clear. 

In reality, the majority of the driving population is quite lazy and won't do that.  Other times, momentary lapses of judgment happen.  Why is it unacceptable for me to argue that style over function is going too far such that it is unfortunately making bad drivers worse?

but the take-away there is that you don't expect the driver to look ahead at the corner to see if there are people crossing?

at any one point in time, yes... there is a blind spot, FOR SURE... but, to not be able to think ahead and figure out where people *will* be instead of where they are is our problem. you are in a moving vehicle... that blind spot moves as well. over even a short period of time, you should be able to form a pretty damn good picture in your head.

peoples spatial awareness is horrible. add in all the devices and other distractions and we are getting worse.

[ktm525]

I was following a 90's oval Taurus yesterday and was quite impressed with the airy greenhouse and excellent visibility.

[dkaz]

Minivans have excellent rearward visibility.

[Noto]

but the take-away there is that you don't expect the driver to look ahead at the corner to see if there are people crossing?

I said no such thing.  I most certainly do expect drivers to look ahead at where they are going to ensure the way is clear at all times.

...but there is something to obscure visibility.  While technology is not yet adapted in cars to eliminate the front blind spots, A-pillar thickness varies between vehicles with some thinner than others.  The thick ones absolutely obscure more vision such that there is always a blind spot where one is driving depending on head position.  There comes a point where unless you drive like a hammerhead shark swims (with constant yaw to increase its sightlines), you will always have a particular area obstructed.

...or a gecko, as my colleague wrote:

These days, I tend to drive like a gecko lizard, bobbing my head up and down and all around trying to ensure I haven’t missed anything (hey, I drive a lot of different cars, so I’m never 100 percent certain where the blind spots are anymore).

Can you even spot the kids? They aren’t exactly trying to hide — indeed they are standing side by side in the middle of the crosswalk with their arms outstretched. And wearing some of the most shockingly garish clothes devised by man. (One is in a red-and-white checked jacket, the other in a putrid kelly-green sweater. Honestly.)

http://www.autos.ca/opinion/the-monday-rant-i-cant-see-clearly-now/

I don't disagree that the driver is a large contributor of the problem.

...but in a world filled with obligations to the public, I think the efforts to minimize blind spots is taking a back seat and that's a problem.

[84im]

One of the things my wife really likes about her Chevy Tracker is the excellent all-round visibility.  Comparable to the older model Foresters.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Styling, safety, whatever. IMO, it's all been downhill from here:

 

So much glass.

[lebowski]

...or a gecko, as my colleague wrote:

These days, I tend to drive like a gecko lizard, bobbing my head up and down and all around trying to ensure I haven’t missed anything (hey, I drive a lot of different cars, so I’m never 100 percent certain where the blind spots are anymore).

Can you even spot the kids? They aren’t exactly trying to hide — indeed they are standing side by side in the middle of the crosswalk with their arms outstretched. And wearing some of the most shockingly garish clothes devised by man. (One is in a red-and-white checked jacket, the other in a putrid kelly-green sweater. Honestly.)

http://www.autos.ca/opinion/the-monday-rant-i-cant-see-clearly-now/

I don't disagree that the driver is a large contributor of the problem.

...but in a world filled with obligations to the public, I think the efforts to minimize blind spots is taking a back seat and that's a problem.

That looks like Olympic Village and...[squinting] is that an E34 M5 with a...new driver sticker???

I was actually thinking about this today when I was reading about the new Glickenhaus road-legal supercar in Road & Track, the 004S. It warmed my heart to see its 1) expansive greenhouse and low beltline, and 2) tires with some friggin’ sidewall. The 004s ain’t exactly mass-market, but I'm glad it's out there.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a13795442/2019-scg-004s-photos-info/

[Arthur Dent]

Styling, safety, whatever. IMO, it's all been downhill from here:

 

So much glass.

My 220D was brilliant too in that regard.

[rrocket]

...or a gecko, as my colleague wrote:

These days, I tend to drive like a gecko lizard, bobbing my head up and down and all around trying to ensure I haven’t missed anything (hey, I drive a lot of different cars, so I’m never 100 percent certain where the blind spots are anymore).

Can you even spot the kids? They aren’t exactly trying to hide — indeed they are standing side by side in the middle of the crosswalk with their arms outstretched. And wearing some of the most shockingly garish clothes devised by man. (One is in a red-and-white checked jacket, the other in a putrid kelly-green sweater. Honestly.)

http://www.autos.ca/opinion/the-monday-rant-i-cant-see-clearly-now/

I don't disagree that the driver is a large contributor of the problem.

...but in a world filled with obligations to the public, I think the efforts to minimize blind spots is taking a back seat and that's a problem.

That looks like Olympic Village and...[squinting] is that an E34 M5 with a...new driver sticker???

I was actually thinking about this today when I was reading about the new Glickenhaus road-legal supercar in Road & Track, the 004S. It warmed my heart to see its 1) expansive greenhouse and low beltline, and 2) tires with some friggin’ sidewall. The 004s ain’t exactly mass-market, but I'm glad it's out there.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a13795442/2019-scg-004s-photos-info/

Ugly.

[lebowski]

...or a gecko, as my colleague wrote:

These days, I tend to drive like a gecko lizard, bobbing my head up and down and all around trying to ensure I haven’t missed anything (hey, I drive a lot of different cars, so I’m never 100 percent certain where the blind spots are anymore).

Can you even spot the kids? They aren’t exactly trying to hide — indeed they are standing side by side in the middle of the crosswalk with their arms outstretched. And wearing some of the most shockingly garish clothes devised by man. (One is in a red-and-white checked jacket, the other in a putrid kelly-green sweater. Honestly.)

http://www.autos.ca/opinion/the-monday-rant-i-cant-see-clearly-now/

I don't disagree that the driver is a large contributor of the problem.

...but in a world filled with obligations to the public, I think the efforts to minimize blind spots is taking a back seat and that's a problem.

That looks like Olympic Village and...[squinting] is that an E34 M5 with a...new driver sticker???

I was actually thinking about this today when I was reading about the new Glickenhaus road-legal supercar in Road & Track, the 004S. It warmed my heart to see its 1) expansive greenhouse and low beltline, and 2) tires with some friggin’ sidewall. The 004s ain’t exactly mass-market, but I'm glad it's out there.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a13795442/2019-scg-004s-photos-info/

Ugly.

you misspelled purpose-built 

[dkaz]

...or a gecko, as my colleague wrote:

These days, I tend to drive like a gecko lizard, bobbing my head up and down and all around trying to ensure I haven’t missed anything (hey, I drive a lot of different cars, so I’m never 100 percent certain where the blind spots are anymore).

I do the same. I've almost been hit by drivers making a left turn and almost hit pedestrians while making a left turn that I'm super cautious whenever I make a left turn now especially when it's dark and wet out but I do it at all times out of habit.

[tpl]

Those older cars with their big and tall greenhouses had lots of glass: heavy  Thick glass as well as it wasn't as strong as it is now : heavy  Lots of solar gain: more power used by the AC.    Nowadays a car co. bureaucrat in charge of CAFE  would have a conniption at such a thing. Must be at least 1/10th mpg wasted there just to save a few pedestrians.   

[johngenx]

I'd love that BMW with a modern driveline.  I drive an NA Miata - I obviously don't care about safety devices...

 

[tpl]

WE are talking about the blue photo a few posts earlier?
More modern driveline?   So you'd swap mechanical injection for a computer controlled system that YOU can't service....hmmmmm     I'm not sure I would. 
I am not so sure that ABS and stability control would improve that car.  Being a much simpler car than today the OBD system would not be any help. What else has really changed...if that car had a manual transmission what could one sensibly change.  Certainly more reliability, fewer assorted oil leaks.  As a 1972 it probably had an air pump , EGR and other power sapping stuff that could just disappear.

[johngenx]

The fuel systems on those old cars are JUNK.  Just junk.  Modern computer controlled FI is 1000x better.  Add in a modern rear LSD and a nice six speed manual and that old BMW would be lovely.  Oh, and modern disc brakes and tires too.

I have fond memories of old cars, but not faded so much that I don't recall how labour intensive they were.

[tooscoops]

but the take-away there is that you don't expect the driver to look ahead at the corner to see if there are people crossing?

I said no such thing.  I most certainly do expect drivers to look ahead at where they are going to ensure the way is clear at all times.

...but there is something to obscure visibility.  While technology is not yet adapted in cars to eliminate the front blind spots, A-pillar thickness varies between vehicles with some thinner than others.  The thick ones absolutely obscure more vision such that there is always a blind spot where one is driving depending on head position.  There comes a point where unless you drive like a hammerhead shark swims (with constant yaw to increase its sightlines), you will always have a particular area obstructed.

...or a gecko, as my colleague wrote:

These days, I tend to drive like a gecko lizard, bobbing my head up and down and all around trying to ensure I haven’t missed anything (hey, I drive a lot of different cars, so I’m never 100 percent certain where the blind spots are anymore).

Can you even spot the kids? They aren’t exactly trying to hide — indeed they are standing side by side in the middle of the crosswalk with their arms outstretched. And wearing some of the most shockingly garish clothes devised by man. (One is in a red-and-white checked jacket, the other in a putrid kelly-green sweater. Honestly.)

http://www.autos.ca/opinion/the-monday-rant-i-cant-see-clearly-now/

I don't disagree that the driver is a large contributor of the problem.

...but in a world filled with obligations to the public, I think the efforts to minimize blind spots is taking a back seat and that's a problem.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth at all, so please forgive me if i seem to be doing so! not my intention!

but what i'm saying is yes... at that point of the picture, the children are hidden... one second earlier, they would have been clear in the windshield... one second later, clean in your side window... if you want to go back further, ten seconds, when the driver should be checking to see if that is the road they will be turning on, the kids would be on the sidewalk ahead, moving towards the crosswalk.

it's not always easy and we all make mistakes, but i was taught to always be looking at "the big picture"... last night i saw a truck coming around the on-ramp... i could tell at their speed, they would want to merge right where a car would be. i was in the middle lane and knew that my higher speed would put me about next to that car at that time... so i moved over to the left lane to give him room to go if the truck came over "on top" of him... whaddya know? that's exactly what happened. my passenger actually asked why i moved over prior to the truck merging...i'm not clairvoyant... i just know that i'm moving... and others are moving... at different speeds. and yes, in a moment, you can't see everything, but your mind should be able to put it all together if you are actually taking it all in.

i'm not trying to pat myself on the back here, because that is what every driver should do. if you can't, then you aren't respecting driving enough or maybe just don't have the awareness to drive a high speed projectile.

also, there are exceptions to every rule of course... a person walking at a rate of speed that keeps them in a blind spot say... it happens. that's why they are accidents, not "on purposes". i'm sure we'll get to invisible pillars eventually, but for now... protect against the crashes that are deadly as a priority, and the ones causing injury as secondary.