Author Topic: Towing with sedan Not Recommended , are we buying subpar parts or misrepresentat (Read 4670 times)

amp7 · « **on:** January 16, 2018, 02:02:31 pm »

Hi,

Has anyone ever come across a good technical study on why most sedans destined for North America can’t tow a trailer and most sedans destined for other parts of the world can?

I can’t see it as a legal issue given that manufacturers would have the same concerns with SUVs or any vehicle with a tow capacity.

Are we in North America paying full price for a mechanically inferior product when we purchase a sedan? I’d love to see a study comparing say a Subaru Legacy (can’t tow) and a Subaru Liberty (can tow). Do they really have different drive train components?

dkaz · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2018, 02:11:02 pm »

Number one reason could be transmission cooling if you have an automatic transmission. As there's been less demand for towing in this segment combined with it being a price sensitive market, the transmission cooler is probably sized just right for a car and its payload and nothing else to reduce cost. You could add an external transmission cooler to help and I've seen cars that don't have an official towing capacity used for towing, but the manufacturer will not condone it.

An out there reason could be changes to the substructure or increase in weight due to North American crash testing requirements.

Sir Osis of Liver · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2018, 02:17:13 pm »

The towing standards are different, for one. European trailers use less tongue weight (the axle is closer to the centre of mass), which can make them less stable, so are required to tow at lower speeds. In North America, there aren't any speed restrictions, but the trailers have to put more weight on the hitch for stability.

The second thing is insurance and liability issues, especially in the US, make auto companies pretty conservative in their towing capacity specifications.

Fobroader · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2018, 02:42:34 pm »

Number one thing would be that here we have proper vehicles available for towing so you don't have to attempt to pull a trailer with your 1L Fiat....so why bother??

tpl · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2018, 03:05:04 pm »

I agree with that!

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tenpenny · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2018, 03:05:08 pm »

I expect the main reason is the lawyer factor.

HeliDriver · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2018, 03:15:19 pm »

Quote from: Sir Osis of Liver on January 16, 2018, 02:17:13 pm

The towing standards are different, for one. European trailers use less tongue weight (the axle is closer to the centre of mass), which can make them less stable, so are required to tow at lower speeds. In North America, there aren't any speed restrictions, but the trailers have to put more weight on the hitch for stability.

The second thing is insurance and liability issues, especially in the US, make auto companies pretty conservative in their towing capacity specifications.

Yes, this.

Jalopnik had a really good explanation of this. There’s actual science, not just “because lawyers.”

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611/1609771499

amp7 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2018, 04:57:41 pm »

Thank you HeliDriver; very interesting read. It certainly explains why individuals in EU countries can pull much heavier loads (reduce tongue weight, drive slower, etc) . That said; there has to be more to the story.

In the article, the author states that US and EU vehicles were the same. If that remains true today, how does one reconcile a high tow capability over seas and zero tow capabilities here. Granted, a sedan will not be able to tow what a RAM truck can tow and 4000lbs may be asking too much but should we not expect to be able to tow a 1000 lbs. with two people on board and little or no cargo? Twelve years ago, most sedans could tow a 1000lbs. safely and the rules have not changed so the change has to be in the way cars are now being built.

The vehicles sold in Europe may in fact be different from those sold in North America and that goes to the heart of my question. Are they so different (different radiator, different wheel bearings etc) as to justify a zero tow rating? At the end of the day, are we paying full price for a less capable sedan?

Great_Big_Abyss · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2018, 05:04:47 pm »

Quote from: HeliDriver on January 16, 2018, 03:15:19 pm

Quote from: Sir Osis of Liver on January 16, 2018, 02:17:13 pm
The towing standards are different, for one. European trailers use less tongue weight (the axle is closer to the centre of mass), which can make them less stable, so are required to tow at lower speeds. In North America, there aren't any speed restrictions, but the trailers have to put more weight on the hitch for stability.

The second thing is insurance and liability issues, especially in the US, make auto companies pretty conservative in their towing capacity specifications.

Yes, this.

Jalopnik had a really good explanation of this. There’s actual science, not just “because lawyers.”

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-me-down-1609112611/1609771499

I third this. I've done a bunch of research on the matter, and it has 100% to do with tongue weight. In Europe, they're allowed to use close to 0% tongue weight. Here it's minimum 10%. The rear suspension of cars and light CUV's just aren't designed to handle that kind of load.

The engines, transmissions, and cooling systems, however, are fully capable of pulling reasonable loads.

Quote from: amp7 on January 16, 2018, 04:57:41 pm

Thank you HeliDriver; very interesting read. It certainly explains why individuals in EU countries can pull much heavier loads (reduce tongue weight, drive slower, etc) . That said; there has to be more to the story.

In the article, the author states that US and EU vehicles were the same. If that remains true today, how does one reconcile a high tow capability over seas and zero tow capabilities here. Granted, a sedan will not be able to tow what a RAM truck can tow and 4000lbs may be asking too much but should we not expect to be able to tow a 1000 lbs. with two people on board and little or no cargo? Twelve years ago, most sedans could tow a 1000lbs. safely and the rules have not changed so the change has to be in the way cars are now being built.

The vehicles sold in Europe may in fact be different from those sold in North America and that goes to the heart of my question. Are they so different (different radiator, different wheel bearings etc) as to justify a zero tow rating? At the end of the day, are we paying full price for a less capable sedan?

Most cars are capable of towing 1000lbs. That's only 100lbs of tongue weight. I towed close to 1000lbs (boat/motor/trailer) with my 4-cyl Altima all the time. You could definitely feel that something was hanging on back there when accelerating and braking, but the car had zero problems keeping up with traffic and merging onto highways, even with the whole family on board. I towed a 1500lbs pop-up trailer with it once, with the whole family on board and the trunk stuffed with camping gear, and once again, the car had no problem keeping up with traffic and making it up hills. The rear suspension, however, was taxed.

dkaz · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2018, 05:15:38 pm »

2003-08 Corolla and Matrix could tow 1500 lb.

EV-Light · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2018, 05:18:03 pm »

Quote from: amp7 on January 16, 2018, 04:57:41 pm

Thank you HeliDriver; very interesting read. It certainly explains why individuals in EU countries can pull much heavier loads (reduce tongue weight, drive slower, etc) . That said; there has to be more to the story.

In the article, the author states that US and EU vehicles were the same. If that remains true today, how does one reconcile a high tow capability over seas and zero tow capabilities here. Granted, a sedan will not be able to tow what a RAM truck can tow and 4000lbs may be asking too much but should we not expect to be able to tow a 1000 lbs. with two people on board and little or no cargo? Twelve years ago, most sedans could tow a 1000lbs. safely and the rules have not changed so the change has to be in the way cars are now being built.

The vehicles sold in Europe may in fact be different from those sold in North America and that goes to the heart of my question. Are they so different (different radiator, different wheel bearings etc) as to justify a zero tow rating? At the end of the day, are we paying full price for a less capable sedan?

not all manufactures are towing averse....check this:

https://www.fleet.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/RV_Trailer%20Towing%20Guide_EN_2017.pdf

EV-Light · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2018, 05:36:11 pm »

Quote from: Great_Big_Abyss on January 16, 2018, 05:04:47 pm

Most cars are capable of towing 1000lbs. That's only 100lbs of tongue weight. I towed close to 1000lbs (boat/motor/trailer) with my 4-cyl Altima all the time. You could definitely feel that something was hanging on back there when accelerating and braking, but the car had zero problems keeping up with traffic and merging onto highways, even with the whole family on board. I towed a 1500lbs pop-up trailer with it once, with the whole family on board and the trunk stuffed with camping gear, and once again, the car had no problem keeping up with traffic and making it up hills. The rear suspension, however, was taxed.

you were definitely putting tons of accelerated wear and tear to the vehicle at that point...
the Altima 2.5 max capacity is 4226lbs - its weight (3254lbs) = 972lbs...not much room left for towing there.

tenpenny · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2018, 05:43:29 pm »

I will still blame the lawyers.

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tpl · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2018, 05:45:23 pm »

One point. A lot of cars sold in Europe which might be nearly identical to those sold here have manual transmissions.

Blaming the Lawyers and the insurance companies is a good idea at any time.

dkaz · « **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2018, 06:48:26 pm »

Dammit No-san.

ArticSteve · « **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2018, 08:31:09 pm »

you were definitely putting tons of accelerated wear and tear to the vehicle at that point...

^^ Most of the companies decided pretty much in unison that they'd reduce the probability of warranty repairs on vehicles where they could.

Case in point is the current Nissan Maxima v fwd Nissan Murano. Buried in the Maxima's operators manual is "no towing" where the Murano FWD is rated @ 1500 lbs. What's the diff between the 2 vehicles

Engines blocks are the same, the CVT is the same, the rads similar, no special cooler on the Murano, brakes size is similar, and the wheels and tires are slightly larger on the Maxima. Same Nissan Platform for both.

I think that if "liability" was the major concern then there would be a sticker located somewhere on or in the vehicle stating such.

All the Trailer Hitch companies offer a hitch and wiring harness for the Maxima. Doesn't seem to concern them.

tortoise · « **Reply #16 on:** January 16, 2018, 09:03:24 pm »

My Golf says no towing because the DSG will over heat. In the UK it won the "Towing Car of the Year" award. Shrugs.

I'd like tow a 1200 boat with it and I'm sure it would have no trouble. Maybe when the powertrain warranty expires.

These laws exist because of people like my good friend. He towed a packed dual axle U-Haul trailer from Calgary to Ottawa with his '95 Jetta TDI.

ArticSteve · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2018, 09:16:19 pm »

I'd like tow a 1200 boat with it and I'm sure it would have no trouble. Maybe when the powertrain warranty expires.

No need for the delay. 2 words: BIKE RACK. Worst case scenario is you remove the wiring harness prior to any possible warranty claim. 1/2 hour tops. Honestly, Dealers don't give a poop. They live on warranty work and a class 2 hitch is sold purposely as a "bike rack". Of course, remove the receiver.

Fobroader · « **Reply #18 on:** January 17, 2018, 09:46:28 am »

Quote from: tortoise on January 16, 2018, 09:03:24 pm

My Golf says no towing because the DSG will over heat. In the UK it won the "Towing Car of the Year" award. Shrugs.

I'd like tow a 1200 boat with it and I'm sure it would have no trouble. Maybe when the powertrain warranty expires.

These laws exist because of people like my good friend. He towed a packed dual axle U-Haul trailer from Calgary to Ottawa with his '95 Jetta TDI.

A Golf is "towing car of the year".... the hell is wrong with people over there??

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dedeno1 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 17, 2018, 10:07:05 am »

Lot of Golf DSG (and other models with this gear) towing in France but in our country we towing rarely more than a ton. Over a ton we take van like "RENAULT trafic" or VW transporter but with manual gear