Topic: First Drive: 2014 Mazda6

[Solstice2006]

as mentioned above, manual has always been available on the last Mazda 6 with 2.5L.  I am happy it is _still_ available, but it's not like its a new thing...

everyone was comparing it to the accord or Camry etc, except for one who mentioned the optima and sonata.  the optima with 2.5L is the direct competition here, with an emphasis on sportiness and style.  personally I am attracted by the much lower price of the base optima with manual, which does lack things like leather steering.  factor in kia's discounts, and it's a tough sell for the Mazda.

the skyactive engine is once again disappointing with similar output compared to most competition, which is inferior to gdi - 200hp in the much cheaper optima...

don't get me wrong, I like Mazda, specially before ford, and I am still wishing a 'comeback' after ford.  the 6 looks a good car, but I still remember the last 626, a family car that could be (and was) entered into a race.

You're going to need to compare things a little better.  HP doesn't tell the full story.  Mazda's engine produces peak torque at a lower RPM which makes the acceleration more immediate as well as more useful.  Kia's peak torque comes a full 1000 rpm higher and the horsepower peak is 600 rpm higher.  How often are you going up to 6300 RPM? Combine that with Mazda's automatic which has less losses because the torque converter locks up after 8 kph, and it is actually putting down more of it's power and torque than a competitive auto/cvt.  Plus the fact that it is lighter than most of the competition and you can get it in manual in more trims than base.  Not to mention, the diesel will likely accelerate faster.  As well, driving dynamics (steering feel, handling) will be fantastic compared to most of the competition (including the Koreans).

Mixnmash, Although we don't always agree, we do here.  Your explanation in comparing the Mazda6 to the Optima has merit.  Big Applause

 I personally would not cross shop the two of them.  Hyundai/Kia have a bit to go in the handling department, and I find it difficult to judge an engine by specs only.  But if you look at specs, the power in the Mazda6 is average, not class leading, but not at the bottom.  Weight is class leading, fuel economy is near the top (with the gas), as reported handling is great, and the design will hold its own in years to come. 

You got me on leather steering wheel and satelite radio, its a major deal breaker.  I have a feeling that Mazda will fix that in the future, after hearing the complaints.

[cruzzer]

Another competitive contender in it's class. One complaint, I do not like this 'no cost option' on the manual transmission. And why does it rear it's ugly head on the upper trim levels? Weird. Add the $3500+ over the US price, $1200 for the "no cost" manual and the $1695 (+$900 over the US) for delivery (wtf?) and that's a whole lot of extra profit for Mazda Canada. The base Mazda6 with the 6 speed manual is on 'the list' but the new Accord is too and the new Mazda3 will also be considered.

[takwu]

as mentioned above, manual has always been available on the last Mazda 6 with 2.5L.  I am happy it is _still_ available, but it's not like its a new thing...

everyone was comparing it to the accord or Camry etc, except for one who mentioned the optima and sonata.  the optima with 2.5L is the direct competition here, with an emphasis on sportiness and style.  personally I am attracted by the much lower price of the base optima with manual, which does lack things like leather steering.  factor in kia's discounts, and it's a tough sell for the Mazda.

the skyactive engine is once again disappointing with similar output compared to most competition, which is inferior to gdi - 200hp in the much cheaper optima...

don't get me wrong, I like Mazda, specially before ford, and I am still wishing a 'comeback' after ford.  the 6 looks a good car, but I still remember the last 626, a family car that could be (and was) entered into a race.

You're going to need to compare things a little better.  HP doesn't tell the full story.  Mazda's engine produces peak torque at a lower RPM which makes the acceleration more immediate as well as more useful.  Kia's peak torque comes a full 1000 rpm higher and the horsepower peak is 600 rpm higher.  How often are you going up to 6300 RPM? Combine that with Mazda's automatic which has less losses because the torque converter locks up after 8 kph, and it is actually putting down more of it's power and torque than a competitive auto/cvt.  Plus the fact that it is lighter than most of the competition and you can get it in manual in more trims than base.  Not to mention, the diesel will likely accelerate faster.  As well, driving dynamics (steering feel, handling) will be fantastic compared to most of the competition (including the Koreans).

Mixnmash, Although we don't always agree, we do here.  Your explanation in comparing the Mazda6 to the Optima has merit.  Big Applause

 I personally would not cross shop the two of them.  Hyundai/Kia have a bit to go in the handling department, and I find it difficult to judge an engine by specs only.  But if you look at specs, the power in the Mazda6 is average, not class leading, but not at the bottom.  Weight is class leading, fuel economy is near the top (with the gas), as reported handling is great, and the design will hold its own in years to come. 

You got me on leather steering wheel and satelite radio, its a major deal breaker.  I have a feeling that Mazda will fix that in the future, after hearing the complaints.

Mixnmash, I don't think I *need* to compare things a little better, but anyways I don't think you did better either.  You cannot compare maximum torque engine speed especially if they are different, even if very slightly.  The "better" way to compare is how much torque is produced at the same engine speed; in this case how much torque does the Optima engine produce at the "full 1000 rpm" lower?  Chances are not much less than Mazda's max torque.  And if you want "acceleration more immediate as well as more useful" you will have to compare that torque at lower engine speeds, basically comparing the torque curves.  The conclusions you drew from those maximum specs are misguided to say the least.

Max hp, however, does say a lot.  No it does not tell the whole story; but in this case, it's a whole 16 hp more.  How often do I rev to 6300?  Every time I leave the house for work later than ideally - which is more often than not.

The torque converter locking sounds good, but I have never seen one, let alone determining how much it actually helps, if at all.  I just drive manual.

Solstice2006, I suggest you read some of the articles here on the Optima before you say it has "a bit to go in the handling department".  You can also "judge an engine" by test driving it yourself if you find it difficult with specs only.  Refusing to cross-shop something based on brand reputation alone may not serve you well.

[Solstice2006]

I may not have read all the reviews on the perfect Optima, with it's 2.4L engine that is not as smooth as Mazda's or Honda's 4 cylinder, as per the review.  Smoothness is more important to me, than extra ponies, and noise that surge into the cabin.  I am sure the Optima is a great vechicle.  But after test driving the Mazda3 and Kia Forte back to back, the ride and handling of the Mazda is much sportier.  Most engineers follow the philosphy across the product line.  An Accord is sportier than a Camry, a Golf and the Mazda3 drive very similar.  Part of the negatives of the Elantra models is the lack of sport handling, also in the Veloster, the same issue keeps appearing across the Hyundai product line, maybe Kia will resolve the issue sooner than Hyundai.  But why should I cross shop, when I already know my priority is the first thing on the engineers mind.  Not gadgets like self parking or cameras, not rear seat heaters,  and not HP, the MX-5 has been doing great without a turbo, or more HP. It's up to the customer of what is more important, some call the handling in the Mazda3 too harsh, for them they can drive an Elantra/Forte.  I found the handling in the 1st gen Mazda6 a perfect balance.  Anxious to see how this lighter Mazda6 has faired.

[Julie]

Solstice2006, I suggest you read some of the articles here on the Optima before you say it has "a bit to go in the handling department". 

So I was curious about this comment since I always hope for more cars that focus on fun and handling as a priority

Autos.ca review

convincing sports sedan for the relatively paltry sum of $33,695

Edmunds insideline:

Kia is poised to shake up the midsize sedan segment with its fast and flashy Optima Turbo. If only it handled as well as it looks.

Winding Road:

In the corners, the Optima behaves itself the way a classed-up family sedan should. There isn’t a lot of body roll, and what movement there is helps to suss out proximity to the grip limits. Turn-in isn’t super sharp, and the steering feels tuned to offer a smoother turning experience rather than a twitchier response one associates with more sport-minded vehicles. The little bit of play on-center feels appropriate, and doesn’t require a lot of corrections when cruising in a straight line at high speeds.

Car and Driver:

Highs:
Willing engine, near-perfect front seats, amenities galore, charming styling.

Lows:
Shifter mounted too far astern, slow steering, try to use the steering-wheel heater.

Verdict:
With a bit of steering tuning, this car could rise to mid-size front-runner.

Those are just a few of the reviews I went through quick. It seems the Optima is a competitive, solid choice in this segment (esp. looks and features for money), but I'm not sure the consensus is that it's at the top of the sporty spectrum...

[Jaeger]

That's an excellent and comprehensive review - I like this car a lot.  I suspect I would want more go-power than this normally aspirated 4 delivers, but for sure it would be in the mix were I shopping the midsize sedan segment now.

[Nuttygent]

  You go Mazda, starting kicking some Honda and VW butts! What a great car from first indications, my brother has been driving the 6 wagon diesel in England the last couple of years. It pulls like a freight train out of the round-a-bouts and returned 50 plus MPG driving it like a F-1 car!!!

[Nuttygent]

  Oh yeah Mazda...please, please bring a diesel hatch or wagon and the world will be perfect.

[Julie]

  Oh yeah Mazda...please, please bring a diesel hatch or wagon and the world will be perfect.

Damn...

[mixmanmash]

as mentioned above, manual has always been available on the last Mazda 6 with 2.5L.  I am happy it is _still_ available, but it's not like its a new thing...

everyone was comparing it to the accord or Camry etc, except for one who mentioned the optima and sonata.  the optima with 2.5L is the direct competition here, with an emphasis on sportiness and style.  personally I am attracted by the much lower price of the base optima with manual, which does lack things like leather steering.  factor in kia's discounts, and it's a tough sell for the Mazda.

the skyactive engine is once again disappointing with similar output compared to most competition, which is inferior to gdi - 200hp in the much cheaper optima...

don't get me wrong, I like Mazda, specially before ford, and I am still wishing a 'comeback' after ford.  the 6 looks a good car, but I still remember the last 626, a family car that could be (and was) entered into a race.

You're going to need to compare things a little better.  HP doesn't tell the full story.  Mazda's engine produces peak torque at a lower RPM which makes the acceleration more immediate as well as more useful.  Kia's peak torque comes a full 1000 rpm higher and the horsepower peak is 600 rpm higher.  How often are you going up to 6300 RPM? Combine that with Mazda's automatic which has less losses because the torque converter locks up after 8 kph, and it is actually putting down more of it's power and torque than a competitive auto/cvt.  Plus the fact that it is lighter than most of the competition and you can get it in manual in more trims than base.  Not to mention, the diesel will likely accelerate faster.  As well, driving dynamics (steering feel, handling) will be fantastic compared to most of the competition (including the Koreans).

Mixnmash, Although we don't always agree, we do here.  Your explanation in comparing the Mazda6 to the Optima has merit.  Big Applause

 I personally would not cross shop the two of them.  Hyundai/Kia have a bit to go in the handling department, and I find it difficult to judge an engine by specs only.  But if you look at specs, the power in the Mazda6 is average, not class leading, but not at the bottom.  Weight is class leading, fuel economy is near the top (with the gas), as reported handling is great, and the design will hold its own in years to come. 

You got me on leather steering wheel and satelite radio, its a major deal breaker.  I have a feeling that Mazda will fix that in the future, after hearing the complaints.

Mixnmash, I don't think I *need* to compare things a little better, but anyways I don't think you did better either.  You cannot compare maximum torque engine speed especially if they are different, even if very slightly.  The "better" way to compare is how much torque is produced at the same engine speed; in this case how much torque does the Optima engine produce at the "full 1000 rpm" lower?  Chances are not much less than Mazda's max torque.  And if you want "acceleration more immediate as well as more useful" you will have to compare that torque at lower engine speeds, basically comparing the torque curves.  The conclusions you drew from those maximum specs are misguided to say the least.

Max hp, however, does say a lot.  No it does not tell the whole story; but in this case, it's a whole 16 hp more.  How often do I rev to 6300?  Every time I leave the house for work later than ideally - which is more often than not.

The torque converter locking sounds good, but I have never seen one, let alone determining how much it actually helps, if at all.  I just drive manual.

Solstice2006, I suggest you read some of the articles here on the Optima before you say it has "a bit to go in the handling department".  You can also "judge an engine" by test driving it yourself if you find it difficult with specs only.  Refusing to cross-shop something based on brand reputation alone may not serve you well.

First, sorry you took personal offense.  Second, your methodology is only sensible if the gearing is the same.  Personally, for daily driving, having more bottom end torque is better than having a bit of peak HP near redline.  As well, I would be interested in seeing the dyno charts for both engines.  How long does it take you to get to redline versus a lower rpm?  That means the guy in the 6 will be ahead while you are trying to catch up while your lane ends.  Case in point, my 300ZX vs another one in town.  I make 100 lbft more torque at a lower RPM, but the other car makes 100HP more overall.  Guess which one is more fun on the street?  Mine is because the torque is more useable.

I do agree with you in cross shopping.  It is best to be informed on every competitive vehicle first hand before making a decision.  You never know.  That said, I found the Optima less than engaging, and the fact that there is no manual transmission anymore makes it less desirable for me, and from the sounds of it, for you too.

[mixmanmash]

  Oh yeah Mazda...please, please bring a diesel hatch or wagon and the world will be perfect.

Damn...

The wagon is hot.  They should so bring it, even just to Canada. 

[Solstice2006]

Julie, have you no mercy.  Everytime I see your face the wagon I cry....We need a website, where the thousands of people who want the wagon, can add their two cents, and their might be a chance Canada could eventually get one.

[dkaz]

There have been Canadian only cars back in the days, the Mazda 6 wagon should be one of them.

Toyota Echo HB, Nissan X-Trail, First gen MB B-Class, Nissan Micra, Chevrolet Orlando...

I drove my Mazda 3 at full speed through some twisties yesterday, I had a smile as big as the front of my car by the end of it all. I agree it's not just the handling, it's also the steering feel.

[takwu]

as mentioned above, manual has always been available on the last Mazda 6 with 2.5L.  I am happy it is _still_ available, but it's not like its a new thing...

everyone was comparing it to the accord or Camry etc, except for one who mentioned the optima and sonata.  the optima with 2.5L is the direct competition here, with an emphasis on sportiness and style.  personally I am attracted by the much lower price of the base optima with manual, which does lack things like leather steering.  factor in kia's discounts, and it's a tough sell for the Mazda.

the skyactive engine is once again disappointing with similar output compared to most competition, which is inferior to gdi - 200hp in the much cheaper optima...

don't get me wrong, I like Mazda, specially before ford, and I am still wishing a 'comeback' after ford.  the 6 looks a good car, but I still remember the last 626, a family car that could be (and was) entered into a race.

You're going to need to compare things a little better.  HP doesn't tell the full story.  Mazda's engine produces peak torque at a lower RPM which makes the acceleration more immediate as well as more useful.  Kia's peak torque comes a full 1000 rpm higher and the horsepower peak is 600 rpm higher.  How often are you going up to 6300 RPM? Combine that with Mazda's automatic which has less losses because the torque converter locks up after 8 kph, and it is actually putting down more of it's power and torque than a competitive auto/cvt.  Plus the fact that it is lighter than most of the competition and you can get it in manual in more trims than base.  Not to mention, the diesel will likely accelerate faster.  As well, driving dynamics (steering feel, handling) will be fantastic compared to most of the competition (including the Koreans).

Mixnmash, Although we don't always agree, we do here.  Your explanation in comparing the Mazda6 to the Optima has merit.  Big Applause

 I personally would not cross shop the two of them.  Hyundai/Kia have a bit to go in the handling department, and I find it difficult to judge an engine by specs only.  But if you look at specs, the power in the Mazda6 is average, not class leading, but not at the bottom.  Weight is class leading, fuel economy is near the top (with the gas), as reported handling is great, and the design will hold its own in years to come. 

You got me on leather steering wheel and satelite radio, its a major deal breaker.  I have a feeling that Mazda will fix that in the future, after hearing the complaints.

Mixnmash, I don't think I *need* to compare things a little better, but anyways I don't think you did better either.  You cannot compare maximum torque engine speed especially if they are different, even if very slightly.  The "better" way to compare is how much torque is produced at the same engine speed; in this case how much torque does the Optima engine produce at the "full 1000 rpm" lower?  Chances are not much less than Mazda's max torque.  And if you want "acceleration more immediate as well as more useful" you will have to compare that torque at lower engine speeds, basically comparing the torque curves.  The conclusions you drew from those maximum specs are misguided to say the least.

Max hp, however, does say a lot.  No it does not tell the whole story; but in this case, it's a whole 16 hp more.  How often do I rev to 6300?  Every time I leave the house for work later than ideally - which is more often than not.

The torque converter locking sounds good, but I have never seen one, let alone determining how much it actually helps, if at all.  I just drive manual.

Solstice2006, I suggest you read some of the articles here on the Optima before you say it has "a bit to go in the handling department".  You can also "judge an engine" by test driving it yourself if you find it difficult with specs only.  Refusing to cross-shop something based on brand reputation alone may not serve you well.

First, sorry you took personal offense.  Second, your methodology is only sensible if the gearing is the same.  Personally, for daily driving, having more bottom end torque is better than having a bit of peak HP near redline.  As well, I would be interested in seeing the dyno charts for both engines.  How long does it take you to get to redline versus a lower rpm?  That means the guy in the 6 will be ahead while you are trying to catch up while your lane ends.  Case in point, my 300ZX vs another one in town.  I make 100 lbft more torque at a lower RPM, but the other car makes 100HP more overall.  Guess which one is more fun on the street?  Mine is because the torque is more useable.

I do agree with you in cross shopping.  It is best to be informed on every competitive vehicle first hand before making a decision.  You never know.  That said, I found the Optima less than engaging, and the fact that there is no manual transmission anymore makes it less desirable for me, and from the sounds of it, for you too.

I don't disagree low end torque is important, but I disagree determining amount of low end torque by the engine speed of maximum torque.  that's misleading because you don't always need to get to maximum so early - you just need to get to a certain level.

I don't know if this m/t discontinued thing is just the sonata, or just the US?  Kia.CA still has 2013 Optima with m/t in the pricing tool.

[dkaz]

F you Kia for stealthly bring back the manual Optima!

But I want auto climate control and I will never buy a brand new car without leather again. Well I know dealers can do custom leather for about a grand but still.

Also, the 6 will get better real world fuel economy.

[Jaeger]

That wagon is gorgeous.

[mixmanmash]

as mentioned above, manual has always been available on the last Mazda 6 with 2.5L.  I am happy it is _still_ available, but it's not like its a new thing...

everyone was comparing it to the accord or Camry etc, except for one who mentioned the optima and sonata.  the optima with 2.5L is the direct competition here, with an emphasis on sportiness and style.  personally I am attracted by the much lower price of the base optima with manual, which does lack things like leather steering.  factor in kia's discounts, and it's a tough sell for the Mazda.

the skyactive engine is once again disappointing with similar output compared to most competition, which is inferior to gdi - 200hp in the much cheaper optima...

don't get me wrong, I like Mazda, specially before ford, and I am still wishing a 'comeback' after ford.  the 6 looks a good car, but I still remember the last 626, a family car that could be (and was) entered into a race.

You're going to need to compare things a little better.  HP doesn't tell the full story.  Mazda's engine produces peak torque at a lower RPM which makes the acceleration more immediate as well as more useful.  Kia's peak torque comes a full 1000 rpm higher and the horsepower peak is 600 rpm higher.  How often are you going up to 6300 RPM? Combine that with Mazda's automatic which has less losses because the torque converter locks up after 8 kph, and it is actually putting down more of it's power and torque than a competitive auto/cvt.  Plus the fact that it is lighter than most of the competition and you can get it in manual in more trims than base.  Not to mention, the diesel will likely accelerate faster.  As well, driving dynamics (steering feel, handling) will be fantastic compared to most of the competition (including the Koreans).

Mixnmash, Although we don't always agree, we do here.  Your explanation in comparing the Mazda6 to the Optima has merit.  Big Applause

 I personally would not cross shop the two of them.  Hyundai/Kia have a bit to go in the handling department, and I find it difficult to judge an engine by specs only.  But if you look at specs, the power in the Mazda6 is average, not class leading, but not at the bottom.  Weight is class leading, fuel economy is near the top (with the gas), as reported handling is great, and the design will hold its own in years to come. 

You got me on leather steering wheel and satelite radio, its a major deal breaker.  I have a feeling that Mazda will fix that in the future, after hearing the complaints.

Mixnmash, I don't think I *need* to compare things a little better, but anyways I don't think you did better either.  You cannot compare maximum torque engine speed especially if they are different, even if very slightly.  The "better" way to compare is how much torque is produced at the same engine speed; in this case how much torque does the Optima engine produce at the "full 1000 rpm" lower?  Chances are not much less than Mazda's max torque.  And if you want "acceleration more immediate as well as more useful" you will have to compare that torque at lower engine speeds, basically comparing the torque curves.  The conclusions you drew from those maximum specs are misguided to say the least.

Max hp, however, does say a lot.  No it does not tell the whole story; but in this case, it's a whole 16 hp more.  How often do I rev to 6300?  Every time I leave the house for work later than ideally - which is more often than not.

The torque converter locking sounds good, but I have never seen one, let alone determining how much it actually helps, if at all.  I just drive manual.

Solstice2006, I suggest you read some of the articles here on the Optima before you say it has "a bit to go in the handling department".  You can also "judge an engine" by test driving it yourself if you find it difficult with specs only.  Refusing to cross-shop something based on brand reputation alone may not serve you well.

First, sorry you took personal offense.  Second, your methodology is only sensible if the gearing is the same.  Personally, for daily driving, having more bottom end torque is better than having a bit of peak HP near redline.  As well, I would be interested in seeing the dyno charts for both engines.  How long does it take you to get to redline versus a lower rpm?  That means the guy in the 6 will be ahead while you are trying to catch up while your lane ends.  Case in point, my 300ZX vs another one in town.  I make 100 lbft more torque at a lower RPM, but the other car makes 100HP more overall.  Guess which one is more fun on the street?  Mine is because the torque is more useable.

I do agree with you in cross shopping.  It is best to be informed on every competitive vehicle first hand before making a decision.  You never know.  That said, I found the Optima less than engaging, and the fact that there is no manual transmission anymore makes it less desirable for me, and from the sounds of it, for you too.

I don't disagree low end torque is important, but I disagree determining amount of low end torque by the engine speed of maximum torque.  that's misleading because you don't always need to get to maximum so early - you just need to get to a certain level.

I don't know if this m/t discontinued thing is just the sonata, or just the US?  Kia.CA still has 2013 Optima with m/t in the pricing tool.

The thing is, that it is a good indicator of acceleration.  I see your point, that if a car get's 90% of it's peak torque through a wide range, it could be negligible.  However, my point was more related to peak HP, which really is not a good indicator as it is a function of engine RPM and torque at that RPM.  With a flat or relatively flat torque curve, the HP is going to be mainly a function of RPM and hence it will be a line at angle from 0 to redline.

Hmm.  Trouble is that they only offer it in lower levels and with the base engine.  At least with Mazda you can get it in all trims, and even with the upcoming diesel engine.  Honda Accord has a decent choice of trim levels available with the manual transmission (LX, Sport, Touring).  It's just too bad Honda doesn't offer it in the V6 Sedan.

Kia only offers it in the base Optima LX, and only with the 2.4.  Hyundai Sonata has no offering with the manual.

[PRNDL0L]

Another well-executed sedan from Mazda... but what's this? Look closely and you'll see there is zero margin for error with the front fascia. Low speed taps will almost certainly result in the protruding chin snapping at both ends, followed by a nicely cracked grill.  Looks good, but I guess anything over 3km/h kisses with result in a $2500+ repair bill.

[Solstice2006]

Another well-executed sedan from Mazda... but what's this? Look closely and you'll see there is zero margin for error with the front fascia. Low speed taps will almost certainly result in the protruding chin snapping at both ends, followed by a nicely cracked grill.  Looks good, but I guess anything over 3km/h kisses with result in a $2500+ repair bill.

Another good reason not to let a computer park your car.  Just practice with the dealer demo! :-)

[ptrxly]

So where is the Wagon & Hatchback?  Not all of us want to be stuck in an SUV /CUV if we want to carry anything now and again. Wagons are the best of both worlds. Good handling and cargo space. Are we really that worried about the negative image of being seen driving a station wagon?  Oh, and what about towing capacity. Towing was not recommended for the original Mazda 6 wagon with the V6.