Topic: 8-Vehicle 3-Row SUV Comparison - Mazda CX-90 v. (nearly) Everyone

[JG20]

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react.

No, it isn’t.

Ok which one doesn't? Once you do a deep dive on  both Subaru and Audi mentions once it detects "variation in wheel speeds", ie. slippage it responds by adjusting the torque distribution. Do you see different?


ps. The Honda magic rear diff is quite incredible.

What's your definition of slip n grip? To me, it's 2wd (e.g. fwd) until slip is detected, then power is distributed to other axle (e.g. rear wheels). That is not what's happening with Subaru's system. There's always power to all 4 wheels. Torque just gets distributed based on grip. Mainstream automatic cars default to 60f/40r but can lock clutch packs to get up to 50/50. Manual cars are 50:50 with a center viscous LSD. My STI has a planetary center diff that defaults at 41f/59r and can be incrementally locked manually or automatically up to 50/50, Torsten diff in the rear, helical LSD in the front, plus brake torque vectoring based off throttle, steering input, wheel speed sensors, etc.

[ktm525]

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react.

No, it isn’t.

Ok which one doesn't? Once you do a deep dive on  both Subaru and Audi mentions once it detects "variation in wheel speeds", ie. slippage it responds by adjusting the torque distribution. Do you see different?


ps. The Honda magic rear diff is quite incredible.

What's your definition of slip n grip? To me, it's 2wd (e.g. fwd) until slip is detected, then power is distributed to other axle (e.g. rear wheels). That is not what's happening with Subaru's system. There's always power to all 4 wheels. Torque just gets distributed based on grip. Mainstream automatic cars default to 60f/40r but can lock clutch packs to get up to 50/50. Manual cars are 50:50 with a center viscous LSD. My STI has a planetary center diff that defaults at 41f/59r and can be incrementally locked manually or automatically up to 50/50, Torsten diff in the rear, helical LSD in the front, plus brake torque vectoring based off throttle, steering input, wheel speed sensors, etc.

There is power supplied to the front/rear in a 60/40 default. Once the power gets to the rear it flows through a torsen limited slip differential which in order to send power to the wheel with grip one wheel needs to slip. Therefore their system requires slippage to REACT to conditions which has been my point all along.

Subarus own spiel:


I also included an explanation of how a torsen differential works (which is by slippage) :

But, if a Torsen differential is used in this case, as soon as the slippery wheel starts to spin excessively, the speed change will be transferred to the corresponding worm wheel. The right worm wheel transfers the speed change to the left worm wheel, since they are connected through spur gears. Here comes the tricky part! The left side worm wheel will not be able to turn the corresponding worm gear, because, as we said, a worm wheel cannot drive a worm gear! As a result, the whole mechanism gets locked, and the left and right wheels turn together.

[JG20]

^ Mechanical limited slip better than electronic (open diff + brake based torque distribution) IMO. Honda/Acura SH AWD(as well as GKN twinster) probably best in terms of application but not cheap. Plus you're only getting torque distribution under power.

SH AWD in our MDX is awesome. It really has no business handling corners the way it does, in all conditions. That said, my STI feels more natural, predictable and tossable. Focus RS, current Golf R and Corolla GR all have something similar to SH AWD with the rear torque vectoring. There's been reports of RDU overheating rendering the cars FWD. These are extreme cases on track but something that would never happen with the Subie set up. And I think the Golf R is FWD while cruising to save fuel and I'm sure it works. My lifetime fuel consumption is a bit over 12l/100km (combo of ancient inefficient engine and power sapping AWD system). Each system has their pros and cons.

[ArticSteve]

Answering the Subaru AWD question is complex because they have 4 systems as of 2017.  The STi's system is not germane to this slip and grip thread.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10261193/how-subaru-awd-works/

One cannot assume that 99.9% of all buyers of these tubs are morons and can't ascertain the driving feel between the Hyundai, CX-90, MDX.  The number is at least 99.8%. 

Here is the lastest Savage on the Telluride vis-a-vis the CX-90 and the Pilot.  He comments that Pallisade and Telluride are technically identical.  He and Jack never want to drive them again.

"Amazing interior.  Good mini van alternative, but drives worse than a Sienna".

However, "no existing driving dynamics.  Lifeless engine.  Poor mpg.  Cumbersome.  Hates driving it"

Yet it's number one in this shoot out.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Answering the Subaru AWD question is complex because they have 4 systems as of 2017.  The STi's system is not germane to this slip and grip thread.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10261193/how-subaru-awd-works/

One cannot assume that 99.9% of all buyers of these tubs are morons and can't ascertain the driving feel between the Hyundai, CX-90, MDX.  The number is at least 99.8%. 

Here is the lastest Savage on the Telluride vis-a-vis the CX-90 and the Pilot.  He comments that Pallisade and Telluride are technically identical.  He and Jack never want to drive them again.

"Amazing interior.  Good mini van alternative, but drives worse than a Sienna".

However, "no existing driving dynamics.  Lifeless engine.  Poor mpg.  Cumbersome.  Hates driving it"

Yet it's number one in this shoot out.

I think that comes down to price.  It's also probably why Jaeger posted it, while congratulating the writers, because it's another comparo where his beloved Hyundai/Kia comes out on top.

But again, all due to price.  They said right in the article, that if the CX-90 was cheaper, it would have come in first place.  It is the best driving, best looking, and has the nicest interior.  The only detractor was the infotainment. 

I'll tell you what, if I'm spending north of $60k on a large SUV, I"m not gambling that kind of money on a Kia or a Hyundai, no matter how many comparo's they 'win'.  My money's going to Mazda, or Toyota, or Honda. 

[Blueprint]

Answering the Subaru AWD question is complex because they have 4 systems as of 2017.  The STi's system is not germane to this slip and grip thread.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10261193/how-subaru-awd-works/

One cannot assume that 99.9% of all buyers of these tubs are morons and can't ascertain the driving feel between the Hyundai, CX-90, MDX.  The number is at least 99.8%. 

Here is the lastest Savage on the Telluride vis-a-vis the CX-90 and the Pilot.  He comments that Pallisade and Telluride are technically identical.  He and Jack never want to drive them again.

"Amazing interior.  Good mini van alternative, but drives worse than a Sienna".

However, "no existing driving dynamics.  Lifeless engine.  Poor mpg.  Cumbersome.  Hates driving it"

Yet it's number one in this shoot out.

... and yet Telluride is a repeat 10-Best winner with C/D. That's why you have to read / view many reviews before making up your mind. I don't typically watch reviews, I prefer reading them (is there an acronym for Too Long To View Did Not Watch ?  ). Savage Geese has slick productions but I dearly hope they don't only drive on these deserted rural roads they film on. I found the Telluride's engine responsive, and the dynamics reasonnable for what it is - it's a 3-row family car with a 5,000 lbs tow rating, after all, not a BRZ. Minivans like the refered Sienna indeed drive pretty well because they have less unsuspended mass down there and a lower center of gravity.

[JG20]

^ And test drive them. We did and came to similar conclusions as Savagegeese. Really wanted to like the Telluride/Palisade based on reviews but came away underwhelmed.

[Jaeger]

Answering the Subaru AWD question is complex because they have 4 systems as of 2017.  The STi's system is not germane to this slip and grip thread.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10261193/how-subaru-awd-works/

One cannot assume that 99.9% of all buyers of these tubs are morons and can't ascertain the driving feel between the Hyundai, CX-90, MDX.  The number is at least 99.8%. 

Here is the lastest Savage on the Telluride vis-a-vis the CX-90 and the Pilot.  He comments that Pallisade and Telluride are technically identical.  He and Jack never want to drive them again.

"Amazing interior.  Good mini van alternative, but drives worse than a Sienna".

However, "no existing driving dynamics.  Lifeless engine.  Poor mpg.  Cumbersome.  Hates driving it"

Yet it's number one in this shoot out.

... and yet Telluride is a repeat 10-Best winner with C/D. That's why you have to read / view many reviews before making up your mind. I don't typically watch reviews, I prefer reading them (is there an acronym for Too Long To View Did Not Watch ?  ). Savage Geese has slick productions but I dearly hope they don't only drive on these deserted rural roads they film on. I found the Telluride's engine responsive, and the dynamics reasonnable for what it is - it's a 3-row family car with a 5,000 lbs tow rating, after all, not a BRZ. Minivans like the refered Sienna indeed drive pretty well because they have less unsuspended mass down there and a lower center of gravity.

 

[ArticSteve]

I don't typically watch reviews

You should start because all written ones are universally mind numbingly boring in comparison.

 

[PJungnitsch]

Each system has their pros and cons.

Think that is what it boils down to. Our RX's AWD is front based, with power going to the rear with acceleration, slippage, etc. The power distribution display is constantly changing. Does it get stuck? No. Is the mileage better because it spends most of the time driving one axle? Probably

Does it feel as awesome as the Subaru's always on AWD? No. Would I know if I never had a Subaru? No.

[Jaeger]

Answering the Subaru AWD question is complex because they have 4 systems as of 2017.  The STi's system is not germane to this slip and grip thread.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10261193/how-subaru-awd-works/

One cannot assume that 99.9% of all buyers of these tubs are morons and can't ascertain the driving feel between the Hyundai, CX-90, MDX.  The number is at least 99.8%. 

Here is the lastest Savage on the Telluride vis-a-vis the CX-90 and the Pilot.  He comments that Pallisade and Telluride are technically identical.  He and Jack never want to drive them again.

"Amazing interior.  Good mini van alternative, but drives worse than a Sienna".

However, "no existing driving dynamics.  Lifeless engine.  Poor mpg.  Cumbersome.  Hates driving it"

Yet it's number one in this shoot out.

I think that comes down to price. It's also probably why Jaeger posted it, while congratulating the writers, because it's another comparo where his beloved Hyundai/Kia comes out on top.

But again, all due to price.  They said right in the article, that if the CX-90 was cheaper, it would have come in first place.  It is the best driving, best looking, and has the nicest interior.  The only detractor was the infotainment. 

I'll tell you what, if I'm spending north of $60k on a large SUV, I"m not gambling that kind of money on a Kia or a Hyundai, no matter how many comparo's they 'win'.  My money's going to Mazda, or Toyota, or Honda.

Never let it be said that you don't take unprovoked cheap shots.  We could just discuss the merits of the vehicles - but you feel the need to discuss me.  Well done.

[JG20]

We also found the Highlander underwhelming btw.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Answering the Subaru AWD question is complex because they have 4 systems as of 2017.  The STi's system is not germane to this slip and grip thread.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a10261193/how-subaru-awd-works/

One cannot assume that 99.9% of all buyers of these tubs are morons and can't ascertain the driving feel between the Hyundai, CX-90, MDX.  The number is at least 99.8%. 

Here is the lastest Savage on the Telluride vis-a-vis the CX-90 and the Pilot.  He comments that Pallisade and Telluride are technically identical.  He and Jack never want to drive them again.

"Amazing interior.  Good mini van alternative, but drives worse than a Sienna".

However, "no existing driving dynamics.  Lifeless engine.  Poor mpg.  Cumbersome.  Hates driving it"

Yet it's number one in this shoot out.

I think that comes down to price. It's also probably why Jaeger posted it, while congratulating the writers, because it's another comparo where his beloved Hyundai/Kia comes out on top.

But again, all due to price.  They said right in the article, that if the CX-90 was cheaper, it would have come in first place.  It is the best driving, best looking, and has the nicest interior.  The only detractor was the infotainment. 

I'll tell you what, if I'm spending north of $60k on a large SUV, I"m not gambling that kind of money on a Kia or a Hyundai, no matter how many comparo's they 'win'.  My money's going to Mazda, or Toyota, or Honda.

Never let it be said that you don't take unprovoked cheap shots.  We could just discuss the merits of the vehicles - but you feel the need to discuss me.  Well done.

Eh, I"m guilty of being human sometimes, with all the vices that come with.  Nothing personal against you.  Just railing against Hyundai/Kia at the moment. 

[Great_Big_Abyss]

We also found the Highlander underwhelming btw.

Yeah, Toyota doesn't always hit it out of the park.  I get the feeling they've been coasting lately...

[Blueprint]

I don't typically watch reviews

You should start because all written ones are universally mind numbingly boring in comparison.

Another satisfied reader 

[Jaeger]

I don't typically watch reviews

You should start because all written ones are universally mind numbingly boring in comparison.

Another satisfied reader 

 

[PJungnitsch]

Mazda did enable the touchscreen in the CX-90 for Apple Carplay and Android Auto while moving.  I believe this is a first for Mazda.  You still need to use the rotary dial for other functions, although I spend most of my time in CarPlay for navigation, music and other Apple apps.

That makes sense. From what I understand Carplay had the biggest issue with the rotary system as it wasn't designed for it

[ktm525]

I don't typically watch reviews

You should start because all written ones are universally mind numbingly boring in comparison.

Another satisfied reader 

Lol.  Most you tube reviews are just as bad as they try to stretch them out to get ad revenue.

[ArticSteve]

I don' find that for the top tier as follows:

The Savage and Jack are hands down so far ahead of the pack.  I love their vehicle under body commentary.  They move through their commentary quickly.  Next is the Sports Driving TV guy; another American and the Canadian Straight Pipes.

 

[ktm525]

I agree, Savage Geese is my favourite. They just seem so uninterested at times lol. They don't read from the manufacturer briefing notes.