Author Topic: Official: Gas Guzzler Tax Discussion  (Read 333139 times)

Offline ArticSteve

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Official: Gas Guzzler Tax Discussion
« on: March 21, 2007, 12:32:32 am »
Big Three auto makers will take a hit from budget incentives

All for the sake of the "green vote", pure politics  ::)

Canadian Press
TORONTO — Federal incentives to encourage a shift from gas-guzzling SUVs to fuel-efficient “green cars” could hurt struggling North American auto makers by keeping some drivers out of the marketplace without significantly boosting sales of gasoline-electric hybrid cars, industry watchers say.

Auto analyst Dennis DesRosiers said Tuesday the government should be concerned with how auto makers might react to its budget plan, which favours hybrid cars with a rebate of up to $2,000 on the purchase but puts a $4,000 tax on SUVs and other vehicles that use high amounts of fuel.

“If I was General Motors, Ford and Chrysler, I'd be real (upset). Right now, these companies are in real sensitive mode in terms of their very survival,” Mr. DesRosiers said.

“Key decisions are being made in their head office boardrooms in terms of plans of what to keep open, what plants to close and where to put their investments. And what does the federal government do? They send a bomb — a missile — into these boardrooms saying we're going to put a $4,000 tax on your most profitable vehicles,” he said.
 
 Mr. DesRosiers suggested consumers will find other ways to acquire an SUV, if they really want to make the purchase, such as buying used — an area that isn't covered by the incentive plan — or travelling stateside to make a purchase.

The taxes “don't deter consumers from buying these kinds of vehicles, mainly because you can drive a large SUV through the loopholes in them.”

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty applauded the hybrid incentive, saying manufacturers have to help protect the environment by curbing greenhouse gas emissions, despite any short-term effect on the province's huge manufacturing operations.

Ontario and some other provinces already have existing incentive programs that double rebates when a hybrid vehicle is bought.

Mr. McGuinty said he wants to work with the Canadian auto industry — heavily concentrated in Ontario — so it is producing products and models that are more environmentally friendly.

Toyota Motor Corp., which has been a long-time supporter of hybrid vehicles but doesn't plan to make any in Canada, also lauded the incentives plan.

“Toyota has long believed that the global automotive industry must take real measures to make things better for the planet,” Toyota Canada managing director Stephen Beatty said in a release.

“This is why we have invested so heavily in fuel-efficient engines, smaller vehicles, emission-fighting systems and advanced technology such as our industry leading gasoline-electric hybrids.”

Toyota plans to open a new plant in Woodstock, Ont., next year to make the RAV-4 mini sports utility vehicle.

Chris Johnsen, Canadian automotive leader at Deloitte & Touche consultants, said auto makers were unlikely to shift hybrid manufacturing to Canada in response to the new incentives. He added that he's skeptical of how much impact the entire program will have on consumer spending.

“The incentive, while it certainly causes people to take notice, won't shift consumer buying,” he said.

“A consumer up in northern Ontario, for example, would have very little benefit buying a hybrid. Where they make a huge impact is in big-city driving, stop-and-go in places like Vancouver or Montreal.”

Mr. DesRosiers added that even if the tax incentives did affect sales, the Canadian SUV market is too small to make a lasting impression on climate change.

“I respect that people who buy one of those big gas-guzzlers potentially should be a target, but last year in Canada there were 15,000 (SUVs sold) and that's it.”

He said a major effect would be felt if Canadians started to sneak through the taxation loopholes, sending auto sales downward.


Offline Snowman

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2007, 06:17:33 am »
Yep, they did not think this though properly…

Green rebate expected to fuel Toyota sales

Big Three likely to see drop in sales of big gas guzzlers

Mar 21, 2007 04:30 AM
TONY VAN ALPHEN
ROB FERGUSON
STAFF REPORTERS

Booming Toyota Canada Inc., the country's leader in green vehicles, is increasing its sales forecasts after the federal government's introduction of up to $2,000 in rebates for buyers of new fuel-efficient cars.
"Yes, we're reviewing and reworking all our assumptions," Stephen Beatty, Toyota's managing director, said yesterday.
Toyota and some other auto makers received a boost Monday when Finance Minister Jim Flaherty announced a new program that encourages the purchase of fuel-efficient vehicles.
The program in the 2007 budget rewards buyers of fuel-efficient vehicles with rebates between $1,000 and $2,000 and penalizes purchasers of gas guzzlers with levies of up to $4,000.
However, questions remain on who will get what in incentives and penalties if Ottawa changes the way it calculates fuel efficiency. The Environmental Protection Agency in the United States recently revised its procedure for calculations that had inaccurately enhanced fuel efficiency figures for several years.
While Toyota, Honda Canada Inc. and Nissan Canada expect gains, companies like DaimlerChrysler and General Motors, which have a big fleet of gas-guzzling sport-utility vehicles, will experience less showroom business here, industry watchers say.
"The timing is just terrible for some companies," analyst Dennis DesRosiers said. "The federal government just threw a missile into their boardrooms. Can you imagine the president of GM Canada phoning Detroit to tell his bosses that they're slapping some of our models with levies."
Toyota, a big GM rival, sells some of the most fuel-efficient vehicles in the marketplace.
Buyers of Toyota's subcompact Yaris and Corolla compact, which are already among the top five selling cars in Canada, will receive $1,000 rebates under the federal program. New buyers of the Prius and Camry hybrids will get $2,000 and $1,500 respectively.
Those rebates are in addition to Ontario tax credits of up to $2,000 for the purchase of fuel-efficient vehicles that the provincial government introduced last year.
Beatty said Toyota would raise its sales forecast significantly for some models like the Yaris.
But big percentage jumps for the Prius and Camry hybrids would not translate into huge sales jumps relative to the overall market because they are starting from a small base, he said. Prius and Camry and hybrid sales topped 4,000 in 2006.
"I don't think the incentives will alone be the determining factor but it's very important to move the demand curve and bring the market to fuel-efficient and lower-emission cars faster," Beatty added.
Toyota's sales, including the Lexus brand, jumped more than 11 per cent to a record 195,780 vehicles last year.
Analysts say the federal rebates will improve the affordability of hybrids – which use a combination of electrical motors and gasoline engines for power – so they can compete against other models in specific segments.
Despite better fuel efficiency, the higher price of hybrids has been a major factor in holding down sales since they entered the market about a decade ago.
"There is no doubt that consumers will respond and buy more," DesRosiers said. "You might say this was one small step for the government and one giant leap for hybrids."
Canadians bought about 10,000 hybrids last year and DesRosiers said that could double because of the incentives.
Meanwhile Buzz Hargrove, president of the Canadian Auto Workers union, said he believes the incentives will put hybrids on the shopping list of more consumers but cost jobs here.
"The incentive is to buy vehicles that we don't produce in Canada," he said. "We've got enough problems in the industry, enough people already on layoff and thousands scheduled to be laid off before the end of the year. And now our government is encouraging people to buy vehicles from offshore to throw more people out of work."
But Premier Dalton McGuinty said the federal incentives shouldn't hurt Ontario's auto industry, noting they will push manufacturers to produce more green vehicles.
General Motors of Canada Ltd. will start building hybrid trucks in Oshawa next year

Offline tpl

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2007, 06:37:40 am »
I dont see that losing some percentage of 15,000 big SUVS should be a problem. I suspect that the people who buy them will buy them anyway.  I wonder what the gov would do if GM dropped the price of a Yukon  by $4000 and said publicly that it was to counteract the levy.  If I was the gov and they did that I would immediately double the levy....and they would never get another grant or concession.

Why dont the big SUVS that are affected  just get the diesels from the equivalent trucks? Ford have a super modern tech diesel available that they put in Land Rovers


I haven't seen any complaints from M-B about the potential drop on S class sales.... but M-B could always just put a Bluetec engine in. 
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline Snowman

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2007, 06:44:10 am »
If there were ½ ton diesels available I would be first in line.

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2007, 06:55:43 am »
SO the Yukon gets

Fuel consumption (4.8L)   
City: 15.6 L/100 km (18 mpg Imp)
Hwy:  10.6 L/100 km (27 mpg Imp)

Fuel consumption (5.3)   
City: 14.7 L/100 km (19 mpg Imp)
Hwy:   9.8 L/100 km (29 mpg Imp)

The Toyota Sequoia gets

Fuel consumption (4.7L)
City: 15.7 L/100 km (18 mpg Imp)
Hwy:  12.1 L/100 km (23 mpg Imp)

How is this unfair to GM?

Offline Snowman

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2007, 07:15:58 am »
SO the Yukon gets

Fuel consumption (4.8L)   
City: 15.6 L/100 km (18 mpg Imp)
Hwy:  10.6 L/100 km (27 mpg Imp)

Fuel consumption (5.3)   
City: 14.7 L/100 km (19 mpg Imp)
Hwy:   9.8 L/100 km (29 mpg Imp)

The Toyota Sequoia gets

Fuel consumption (4.7L)
City: 15.7 L/100 km (18 mpg Imp)
Hwy:  12.1 L/100 km (23 mpg Imp)

How is this unfair to GM?


The majority of GM’s profits are in trucks and SUVs while Toyota has margin in all their vehicles.

Offline tpl

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2007, 07:41:50 am »
According to Dorin's calculator the 4.8l Yukon pays. the Sequoia pays but the 5.3 Yukon does not.

Which may be more about the 2 yukons and their options...

Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Official: Gas Guzzler Tax Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2007, 11:35:40 am »
here the link to gov site to tell us what gets a rebate
http://www.tc.gc.ca/programs/environment/ecotransport/ecoauto.htm

UmroAyyar

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Re: link to ecoAUTO Rebate Program
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2007, 11:37:46 am »
Thanks airbalancer, this clarifies the confusion as reported by newspapers that Lexus R400h and Toyota Highlander Hybrid get different rebates.

Offline mmret

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Re: link to ecoAUTO Rebate Program
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2007, 11:47:42 am »
How are they going to update this for the MY08 changes to fuel consumption measurements? (or is that change just a US DOT thing?)
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel.
That makes me feel angry!

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Offline Titanium48

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2007, 03:13:23 pm »
He said a major effect would be felt if Canadians started to sneak through the taxation loopholes, sending auto sales downward.

Speaking of loopholes, the feebate plan has a huge one - pickup trucks are exempt.  Why shouldn't pickup trucks be required to meet the same standards as SUVs?  Buy a crew cab pickup and put a topper on it and you have a fee exempt, gas guzzling SUV equivalent.

Offline JSCC

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2007, 03:23:05 pm »
So no extra rebates on diesels?  ???
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Offline Snowman

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2007, 03:26:59 pm »
He said a major effect would be felt if Canadians started to sneak through the taxation loopholes, sending auto sales downward.

Speaking of loopholes, the feebate plan has a huge one - pickup trucks are exempt.  Why shouldn't pickup trucks be required to meet the same standards as SUVs?  Buy a crew cab pickup and put a topper on it and you have a fee exempt, gas guzzling SUV equivalent.

If trucks were included it would have been political suicide.

Offline Titanium48

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 03:30:36 pm »
Meanwhile Buzz Hargrove, president of the Canadian Auto Workers union, said he believes the incentives will put hybrids on the shopping list of more consumers but cost jobs here.
"The incentive is to buy vehicles that we don't produce in Canada," he said. "We've got enough problems in the industry, enough people already on layoff and thousands scheduled to be laid off before the end of the year. And now our government is encouraging people to buy vehicles from offshore to throw more people out of work."
But Premier Dalton McGuinty said the federal incentives shouldn't hurt Ontario's auto industry, noting they will push manufacturers to produce more green vehicles.
General Motors of Canada Ltd. will start building hybrid trucks in Oshawa next year

The most fuel efficient product ever marketed by one of the "big 3" (the Metro) was built in Canada (at the CAMI plant in Ontario).  Why couldn't it happen again?  Canadians buy more small cars than Americans do, so why haven't the American automakers preferentially located small car production at their Canadian facilities?

Offline sirAQUAMAN64

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 03:31:19 pm »
So no extra rebates on diesels?  ???

The diesels available in '07MY from Benz don't achieve mileage like a featherweight car  ::)  But they DO save you from buying a gasoline engine that consumes a lot more fuel.

Again, the Smart is not technically a 2007MY.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2007, 03:34:46 pm by sirAQUAMAN64 »
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Mitlov

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 03:31:44 pm »
If there were ½ ton diesels available I would be first in line.

Ford's got one on the way.

Mitlov

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2007, 03:34:02 pm »
I haven't seen any complaints from M-B about the potential drop on S class sales.... but M-B could always just put a Bluetec engine in. 

Chances are, if you can afford an S-Class, you can afford a few-thousand-dollar gas guzzler tax.

Offline Titanium48

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2007, 03:35:31 pm »
If trucks were included it would have been political suicide.

But who else are the Alberta rednecks going to vote for?  The conservatives are the one party that can get away with pissing them off.

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2007, 03:38:14 pm »
This moaning and whining is pathetic. The big 3 knew about the upcoming eco crisis for decades, and for decades they have been maxing out their profits and the petrol industries' by building bigger, heavier and thirstier monsters like there was no tomorrow. At the same time the asians didnt push the bigger ones not coz they couldnt engeneer them but because they saw it coming and instead invested in high tech. Now it (finally!) turned out to be a prudent investment. If I could only suggest there should be even bigger tax on guzzlers, e.g. an air pollution health tax, especially in big cities.
I hope this tax will go towards development of renewable energy sources and fully electric cars like tesla.
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Offline Titanium48

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Re: Harper budget hurts the big three at a particular sensitive time
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2007, 03:38:50 pm »
So no extra rebates on diesels?  ???

To be fair, the thresholds for diesel vehicles should be 15% lower than those for gasoline vehicles to account for the higher energy and carbon content of diesel.