Topic: Rates go up at every renewal

[BWII]

If you have a legitimate claim I don't see how any insurance company could deny paying.  Take it to court, take it to arbitration...good luck finding a judge that will side with an insurance company even if by rights they have every right to deny a claim (trust me, that does happen...just because you bought insurance does not mean you're covered for everything, but that doesn't mean a judge will not find in your favour anyway).

You realize that lots and lots of lawyers in insurance litigation have jobs, right?

Yes, and some of them are sneaky bastards...right or wrong, it's about the win, not about what's actually right, or wrong. Which I suppose means they're really good at their job.  The kind of guy you'd want in your corner on a murder charge.

How do you determine what is a "legitimate" claim? You mean the guy who was changing a flat tire in a mall parking lot claiming against his own insurer in tort pursuant to the unidentified driver provision, only to admit at his examination for discovery that he never saw another car hit his, had no damage to his car, didn't report it to police, didn't report it to the mall (to get security footage), and then didn't initiate the claim until the day before the 2 year limitation period expired, and then served it the day before the time to do so expired (179 days after initiating the claim) - making it impossible to get the said security footage or any other corroborating evidence?  And then on discovery, half his answers were, "that was three years ago, I don't remember!"

He thought his claim was "legitimate".  My summary judgment motion, from which I got my client $8,000 in costs, payable out of the insured's pocket, said otherwise.  He definitely had a solid claim for solicitor's negligence to get those costs back, but no claim against his insurer for anything in tort (accident benefits is another story).

I have a bunch of stories like that, both from plaintiff and defence sides.  I also have a number of claims defending property insurance claims.

Do insurers pay out on some "legitimate" claims?  For sure - where the evidence is clear and unambiguous.  Even still, do some insurers deny payout on "legitimate" claims?  Absolutely - if they know it'll cost them a whole lot, they'll deny it entirely in hopes that the unsophisticated person will just "go away", or fight it for years so they can settle out at 50c/dollar. (Ashholes every one of them...I'd be pissed if the co I worked for did that and I found out, and I'm a simple peon)

To your point about the cost of repairs/medical bills/whatever being an issue, absolutely - especially in the motor vehicle context - massage therapists charging $120/hour?  Occupational therapists charging $80/hr, plus mileage, plus other expenses (like meals?!)?

Do you know how settlement of property damage is determined (assuming no "replacement value" coverage)?  They use Autotrader or kijiji to find used car ads that show "similar" models.  Yes, KIJIJI, because Autotrader prices are higher.

The entire insurance industry is flawed - be happy that your premiums only go up by 20% all things considered.

You lost me at tort...isn't that some sort of dessert? 

No?  OK, a legitimate claim to me would be just that.  I guess I'm around a company that doesn't go out of its way to screw you out of your coverage.  In fact it's more likely the claims dept here will do everything to find a way to cover your loss...somewhere...somehow.  Some claims are absolutely deniable, absolutely.  Others gray areas are looked for, and usually in the insureds favour.

Some insureds are just though. Like tractor guy.  I took part in an arbitration once...I knew we were right, I knew I was right, but I'm a horrible "witness" and the other facking lawyer ran with it.  We paid.  We shouldn't have paid. Or maybe our lawyer sucked.  The broker effed up and we got the blame for it, so the retired old fart judge said we pay.  That's years ago...I still won't talk to that broker. 

I suppose that won't be the case in a lot of instances for other companies - just deny deny deny!!  Maybe in your neck of the woods they are simply just a bunch of arseholes which is why people hate insurance companies.  I certainly would.   

[ArticSteve]

Name one internal policy that would deny a claim across the board that's not reasonably accepted now.

I've said full well that I'm not naming any specific insurers.  Giving up specifics of INTERNAL policies? 

DIDN'T ask you to name any specific insurers.  Just attempting to get you to extrapolate on some of your BS statements. 

[Noto]

You realize that lots and lots of lawyers in insurance litigation have jobs, right?

Yes, and some of them are sneaky bastards...right or wrong, it's about the win, not about what's actually right, or wrong. Which I suppose means they're really good at their job.

Yeah, that's part of the reason why I refuse to work at a plaintiff-side personal injury firm anymore.  None of them are totally legitimate: the inherent bias of running a business off "the best case possible" means that the lawyer has to "build" a case where either one doesn't exist or is insufficiently "good" to get maximum profit.

The Law Society has rules against such thing, but how can you ever prove what they're doing when experts are paid to write compelling reports?  You'd have to throw the entire scheme into disrepute (which I would be OK with).

You lost me at tort...isn't that some sort of dessert? 

No?  OK, a legitimate claim to me would be just that.  I guess I'm around a company that doesn't go out of its way to screw you out of your coverage.  In fact it's more likely the claims dept here will do everything to find a way to cover your loss...somewhere...somehow.  Some claims are absolutely deniable, absolutely.  Others gray areas are looked for, and usually in the insureds favour.

I've met enough claims handlers to know that what you describe is very, very rare.  I've seen good, honest adjusters pushed out of their jobs with specific insurers because they were paying out trivial amounts to settle claims that could have denied completely (not because the claim wasn't legitimate, but because the plaintiff wouldn't make a good witness, already disabled pre-accident, etc).

Gray areas in defence firms and with most insurers are looked for as a means to resist paying insured's claims in full at the very least.

[carcrazed]

I have been with TD Meloche Monnex for the last nine years and have been pretty happy with them with claims and rate increase/reductions over the years.  I did have to call them to get lower rates for my home insurance when I moved, though.  Hopefully there won't be any significant increases at my renewal early next year.

[bugmenot]

always thought this highly unethical.

I think insurance companies are highly unethical.

What comes around goes around....

yes, you are right...

[JohnnyMac]

So I'm resurrecting this thread because of our current situation.  So a bit of background, we have been with the same insurance company for the last 15 years (TD), from when we were both 25 to now 40.  Pretty much every year the premiums have gone up, I think there was a year it went down like $20 for the year, most years it goes up somewhere between $5-$10 per month.  Not a big deal as it's not a huge amount in he grand scheme of things.

Well this year our premiums went up around $50 per month.  Our yearly went from $1,600 and to $2,200 and change.  We are located in NB, both travel around 10,000 kms per year, per car.  No tickets or traffic violations, neither of us had drivers ed, and the only knock on our record was my wife was in a fault accident 2 years ago, which caused the other vehicle to have a scratched bumper and no damage on our vehicle.  So I'm thinking under $2k damage at the most, and likely under $1k.  Had I been in the vehicle at the time I would not have gone through insurance.  Anyway, that cost her the one accident she gets "free* because of the accident forgiveness that we had on the plan.  Mine is still intact.

Anyway, so figured I'd get some insurance quotes as we haven't really done that in a decade.  Thought what would be the easiest way to get a quote from multiple insurance providers.  So I contacted 3 insurance brokers.  One got 3 questions in and when he heard who we were with right now and was aware that we got a discount because of our university degrees he flat out said he couldn't come close.

The other.two brokers sent us a long list of questions for us before giving a detailed quote.  One broker called me this afternoon and right from the get go said it wasn't good.  Her quote was for over $4,500.  I laughed her off the phone.  I'm not hopeful that the other broker is going to be any better.  Apparently because my wife had an at fault accident our premiums are crazy high, they basically think of her accident the same as if she was drunk, high on coke, and killed a bus full of kindergarteners.

So I will be calling our current insurance provider to make a few adjustments to see if we can't bring it down a bit.

All this wouldn't be that frustrating except that we know what others are paying.  Before we were paying around $50 more per month than the other people we know, now it'll be around double what others are paying.  And these.people have accidents, younger, travel more kms, and traffic/speeding violations.

I HATE insurance companies, about as much as our cable/internet/phone providers.  The sad thing is I am happy with the service and the coverage from our insurance provider but the push our premiums up every freaking year.  End of rant.

[rrocket]

^^Yea....the best part is they'll try and say with a straight face that they lose money on car insurance.

[JohnnyMac]

^^Yea....the best part is they'll try and say with a straight face that they lose money on car insurance.

They make record profits every year.  Just like Rogers and Bell, but doesn't stop them from pushing increases and fees on people.

[rrocket]

^^Yea....the best part is they'll try and say with a straight face that they lose money on car insurance.

They make record profits every year.  Just like Rogers and Bell, but doesn't stop them from pushing increases and fees on people.

I read a recent article (but of course I can't find it) that they are slated to have HUGE profits for the past year due to fewer people driving.

[JohnnyMac]

^^Yea....the best part is they'll try and say with a straight face that they lose money on car insurance.

They make record profits every year.  Just like Rogers and Bell, but doesn't stop them from pushing increases and fees on people.

I read a recent article (but of course I can't find it) that they are slated to have HUGE profits for the past year due to fewer people driving.

Sounds about right.  Plus with more vehicles having these active safety features I'm sure accidents will be trending down and less severe.  Less injuries and death.  But they argue that the cost to fix vehicles have gone up.

[blur911]

^^Yea....the best part is they'll try and say with a straight face that they lose money on car insurance.

C'mon, they have it rough too.  The owner of the brokerage I go to was having problems finding decent insurance rates on his own Hellcat

[rrocket]

^^Yea....the best part is they'll try and say with a straight face that they lose money on car insurance.

They make record profits every year.  Just like Rogers and Bell, but doesn't stop them from pushing increases and fees on people.

I read a recent article (but of course I can't find it) that they are slated to have HUGE profits for the past year due to fewer people driving.

Sounds about right.  Plus with more vehicles having these active safety features I'm sure accidents will be trending down and less severe.  Less injuries and death.  But they argue that the cost to fix vehicles have gone up.

I did read an article that while they thought there was fewer driving in the US...there was actually MORE death.

Which made no sense.   

[KD]

A couple of years ago my rates went up almost 15% but they knocked it down a bit when I called to ask why so much.  Last year I actually got a discount due to COVID.  Be interesting to see if any increases this year.

[tpl]

In the Ontario context the provincial government could bring in an ICBC system if it was brave enough. Bob Rae's government talked about in.  There is no constitutional reason why this could not be done. The insurance companies would scream and threaten to lay off thousands and it would be interesting to see how the NDP would respond.

When it was discussed I was working on on-line realtime systems for insurance ( which would not have scaled up anywhere near enough)  and frankly if it had been me in charge I would have called BC to make a deal on their software and called IBM to discuss scaling it up from 3MM to 12MM policies.
 A brute force approach, some good old fashioned big iron.

Leave the French translations if required for later.

[quadzilla]

Things insurance companies say...

2020: Give everybody a discount so they think we care.
2021: Now lets really them over.

[rrocket]

In the Ontario context the provincial government could bring in an ICBC system if it was brave enough. Bob Rae's government talked about in.  There is no constitutional reason why this could not be done. The insurance companies would scream and threaten to lay off thousands and it would be interesting to see how the NDP would respond.

When it was discussed I was working on on-line realtime systems for insurance ( which would not have scaled up anywhere near enough)  and frankly if it had been me in charge I would have called BC to make a deal on their software and called IBM to discuss scaling it up from 3MM to 12MM policies.
 A brute force approach, some good old fashioned big iron.

Leave the French translations if required for later.

Yea, and thanks to Rae we got no fault and big premium increases.

Ontario:  Safest jurisdiction to drive in North America...Highest insurance rates.

[pi314]

So I'm resurrecting this thread because of our current situation.  So a bit of background, we have been with the same insurance company for the last 15 years (TD), from when we were both 25 to now 40.  Pretty much every year the premiums have gone up, I think there was a year it went down like $20 for the year, most years it goes up somewhere between $5-$10 per month.  Not a big deal as it's not a huge amount in he grand scheme of things.

Well this year our premiums went up around $50 per month.  Our yearly went from $1,600 and to $2,200 and change.  We are located in NB, both travel around 10,000 kms per year, per car.  No tickets or traffic violations, neither of us had drivers ed, and the only knock on our record was my wife was in a fault accident 2 years ago, which caused the other vehicle to have a scratched bumper and no damage on our vehicle.  So I'm thinking under $2k damage at the most, and likely under $1k.  Had I been in the vehicle at the time I would not have gone through insurance.  Anyway, that cost her the one accident she gets "free* because of the accident forgiveness that we had on the plan.  Mine is still intact.

Anyway, so figured I'd get some insurance quotes as we haven't really done that in a decade.  Thought what would be the easiest way to get a quote from multiple insurance providers.  So I contacted 3 insurance brokers.  One got 3 questions in and when he heard who we were with right now and was aware that we got a discount because of our university degrees he flat out said he couldn't come close.

The other.two brokers sent us a long list of questions for us before giving a detailed quote.  One broker called me this afternoon and right from the get go said it wasn't good.  Her quote was for over $4,500.  I laughed her off the phone.  I'm not hopeful that the other broker is going to be any better.  Apparently because my wife had an at fault accident our premiums are crazy high, they basically think of her accident the same as if she was drunk, high on coke, and killed a bus full of kindergarteners.

So I will be calling our current insurance provider to make a few adjustments to see if we can't bring it down a bit.

All this wouldn't be that frustrating except that we know what others are paying.  Before we were paying around $50 more per month than the other people we know, now it'll be around double what others are paying.  And these.people have accidents, younger, travel more kms, and traffic/speeding violations.

I HATE insurance companies, about as much as our cable/internet/phone providers.  The sad thing is I am happy with the service and the coverage from our insurance provider but the push our premiums up every freaking year.  End of rant.

Assuming you went to school at UNB try Johnson/Unifund. They have a group rate for "University of New Brunswick Associated Alumni"

[JohnnyMac]

So I'm resurrecting this thread because of our current situation.  So a bit of background, we have been with the same insurance company for the last 15 years (TD), from when we were both 25 to now 40.  Pretty much every year the premiums have gone up, I think there was a year it went down like $20 for the year, most years it goes up somewhere between $5-$10 per month.  Not a big deal as it's not a huge amount in he grand scheme of things.

Well this year our premiums went up around $50 per month.  Our yearly went from $1,600 and to $2,200 and change.  We are located in NB, both travel around 10,000 kms per year, per car.  No tickets or traffic violations, neither of us had drivers ed, and the only knock on our record was my wife was in a fault accident 2 years ago, which caused the other vehicle to have a scratched bumper and no damage on our vehicle.  So I'm thinking under $2k damage at the most, and likely under $1k.  Had I been in the vehicle at the time I would not have gone through insurance.  Anyway, that cost her the one accident she gets "free* because of the accident forgiveness that we had on the plan.  Mine is still intact.

Anyway, so figured I'd get some insurance quotes as we haven't really done that in a decade.  Thought what would be the easiest way to get a quote from multiple insurance providers.  So I contacted 3 insurance brokers.  One got 3 questions in and when he heard who we were with right now and was aware that we got a discount because of our university degrees he flat out said he couldn't come close.

The other.two brokers sent us a long list of questions for us before giving a detailed quote.  One broker called me this afternoon and right from the get go said it wasn't good.  Her quote was for over $4,500.  I laughed her off the phone.  I'm not hopeful that the other broker is going to be any better.  Apparently because my wife had an at fault accident our premiums are crazy high, they basically think of her accident the same as if she was drunk, high on coke, and killed a bus full of kindergarteners.

So I will be calling our current insurance provider to make a few adjustments to see if we can't bring it down a bit.

All this wouldn't be that frustrating except that we know what others are paying.  Before we were paying around $50 more per month than the other people we know, now it'll be around double what others are paying.  And these.people have accidents, younger, travel more kms, and traffic/speeding violations.

I HATE insurance companies, about as much as our cable/internet/phone providers.  The sad thing is I am happy with the service and the coverage from our insurance provider but the push our premiums up every freaking year.  End of rant.

Assuming you went to school at UNB try Johnson/Unifund. They have a group rate for "University of New Brunswick Associated Alumni"

Yeah we are both UNB grads and get a discount with TD.  It is pointless to get a quote from anyone else as they will all count the accident that my wife had, where as sticking with TD that isn't factored into the quote.

[JohnnyMac]

Update, as expected TD is unwilling to reduce our premiums, have no explanation as to why our premiums have gone up so much, and their suggestion was to "shop around".  They have us over a barrel as we can't leave because of my wife's accident and everyone with a vehicle is forced to have insurance.

I checked their Facebook page and under their review section it is literally nothing but complaints.  Their rating out of 5 is 1.1, and I think it is only that high because oh likely can't give them any less than 1 star.

The insurance business cares nothing about their clients.  They want you to pay the most, deny as mainly claims as possible, and make the whole process as painful as possible.

[JG20]

Just be thankful you're not paying Ontario rates. What you quoted above for two vehicles is probably what you'd be paying for one vehicle here. Maybe even more with the at fault accident on record.