Author Topic: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??  (Read 14644 times)

Offline JacobBlack

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2019, 07:37:56 am »
It doesn't really make sense.

Statistically, Ontario is the safest region to drive in North America.  Which means fewer deaths.  Fewer accidents.  Fewer medical claims.

What Jacob repeating is the :censor: the insurance companies foist on people so they nod their head in agreement when premiums rise.

You can go and see that accidents have declined over the years...while profits have steadily gone up.  Oh..and don't forget that not only have our premiums gone up, but our medical coverages have gone down.  So we're continually paying more...for less.

https://www.insauga.com/are-car-insurance-companies-in-ontario-ripping-us-off


Injuries and deaths have declined. Actual crashes have not. And repair costs have skyrocketed. This is a material fact, and now I"m not working in that industry anymore I have no skin in the game. Profits from insurance activities have remained stagnant, and the margin on insurance is less than 2 percent in most cases. In Ontario right now, most insurance activity is a loss.

Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2019, 07:39:43 am »
Time to move out of the GTA

Offline pi314

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2019, 08:18:17 am »
in Ottawa my premium went from 879 to 1111. And every other insurer seems to be more expensive.

Not surprised my insurance company wants me gone they did have to do a total write off comprehensive claim  ;D

Offline carcrazed

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2019, 08:56:10 am »
It makes me think maybe I should consider the usage-based insurance thing, but I'm not going to go there just yet.
$118/month isn't terrible, but I hate the principle of paying more for the same thing, and the fact that they offered accident forgiveness for free for two years and then started charge for it without telling me in the cover letter.  I had to look in the details to find that out.

If you're a CAA member, it might be worth checking with them as well.  I switched over about 5 years ago.

I am a member and the quote that I got a few months ago was much higher than what I was & will be paying.  Thanks for the suggestion, though!

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2019, 08:57:19 am »
Injuries and deaths have declined. Actual crashes have not. And repair costs have skyrocketed. This is a material fact, and now I"m not working in that industry anymore I have no skin in the game. Profits from insurance activities have remained stagnant, and the margin on insurance is less than 2 percent in most cases. In Ontario right now, most insurance activity is a loss.

This is true.  I work in the industry (nothing to do with claims) but have access to financial results.
Our company has lost $53 million on Auto in last 3 years.  I don't know what the specific cause for this is, but Auto is a perennial money loser.



Offline Weels

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2019, 08:58:26 am »
Also make sure you are taking advantage of the available discounts... snowtires, etc...

Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2019, 09:18:51 am »
Injuries and deaths have declined. Actual crashes have not. And repair costs have skyrocketed. This is a material fact, and now I"m not working in that industry anymore I have no skin in the game. Profits from insurance activities have remained stagnant, and the margin on insurance is less than 2 percent in most cases. In Ontario right now, most insurance activity is a loss.

This is true.  I work in the industry (nothing to do with claims) but have access to financial results.
Our company has lost $53 million on Auto in last 3 years.  I don't know what the specific cause for this is, but Auto is a perennial money loser.
Just look, they wrote off Sailors daughter’s car which appeared to be minor damage, someone has to pay for that
It probably cost more for injury claims compared to paying off in a death

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2019, 09:41:03 am »
Also make sure you are taking advantage of the available discounts... snowtires, etc...
I already have winter tire, multi-line, and professional association discount on my policy. :)

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2019, 01:58:14 pm »
Desjadins called me.  After going over the detailed history, they offered $1966/year.  :o

Looks like I'll be staying with TD.  They applied $24/year discount for my home insurance, but they said they couldn't do any more for the auto side.  I wonder if I should bother with other guys now.

Offline rrocket

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2019, 03:00:09 pm »
It doesn't really make sense.

Statistically, Ontario is the safest region to drive in North America.  Which means fewer deaths.  Fewer accidents.  Fewer medical claims.

What Jacob repeating is the :censor: the insurance companies foist on people so they nod their head in agreement when premiums rise.

You can go and see that accidents have declined over the years...while profits have steadily gone up.  Oh..and don't forget that not only have our premiums gone up, but our medical coverages have gone down.  So we're continually paying more...for less.

https://www.insauga.com/are-car-insurance-companies-in-ontario-ripping-us-off


Injuries and deaths have declined. Actual crashes have not. And repair costs have skyrocketed. This is a material fact, and now I"m not working in that industry anymore I have no skin in the game. Profits from insurance activities have remained stagnant, and the margin on insurance is less than 2 percent in most cases. In Ontario right now, most insurance activity is a loss.
In 2016, profits were $1.5 billion.

It's funny...your talking points are EXACTLY...like word for word... what my SIL says (she works in the industry). The. Exact. Same.

The insurance companies certainly have a well oiled disinformation program.
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Offline JacobBlack

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2019, 03:33:10 pm »

It's funny...your talking points are EXACTLY...like word for word... what my SIL says (she works in the industry). The. Exact. Same.

The insurance companies certainly have a well oiled disinformation program.

1. Profits don't mean profits from automotive activity. Just profits.
2. There were 8.7 million cars registered in Ontario in 2017, at an average of $1,450 (according to the IBC data on average insurance rates per province). That's 12.6 Billion. And the total profit for insurance companies, including investment activity, housing, etc, was 1.5. That's a small margin.

I expect (and also admire) your cynicism, but sometimes it leads you to be wrong.

Offline rrocket

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2019, 06:00:33 pm »

It's funny...your talking points are EXACTLY...like word for word... what my SIL says (she works in the industry). The. Exact. Same.

The insurance companies certainly have a well oiled disinformation program.

1. Profits don't mean profits from automotive activity. Just profits.
2. There were 8.7 million cars registered in Ontario in 2017, at an average of $1,450 (according to the IBC data on average insurance rates per province). That's 12.6 Billion. And the total profit for insurance companies, including investment activity, housing, etc, was 1.5. That's a small margin.

I expect (and also admire) your cynicism, but sometimes it leads you to be wrong.

The profits I mentioned were specifically for auto insurance divisions.  $1.5 billion.  Which was an increase of nearly 60% since 2012. The insurance industry as a whole (all arms of insurance) profits is many times that (obviously).  You can also go back in time (not sure how long you've been an Ontarian?) and see that PRIOR to the introduction of No Fault Insurance in early 1990s, profits actually WERE pretty meager.  But after No Fault, auto insurance companies profits skyrocketed. 

As far as regulations, the The Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO) regulates that the Return on Equity (ROE) for automobile insurance should be ~5%.  For 2016, the average was nearly ~15%.  Which ties almost perfectly in with the numbers you and I provide.  ~15% of $12.6 billion is $1.9 billion.  So clearly some companies are losing money (about ~$400 million cumulative between the 2  provided figures)...but as a whole profits were $1.5 billion.

FWIW, You can read the financials for companies and see their auto insurance and how they do and their average loss ratio per policy underwritten for each insurance division.  And the companies that were loss/minimal profits, it wasn't because of lack of profitability from the premiums themselves.  The loss ratio on these policies from some of these companies I looked at was around %70 (again, you can see this in their annual financial reports).  So a 30% buffer for profit.  But their operating expenses for their auto division alone were ~28%.  Which when added with the loss ratio gets you that 2% figure you mention previously. (I actually saw one financial that was 99.5% when added!)  The profitable companies auto division expenses were (obviously) much lower.  So their losses weren't due to the auto insurance industry being unprofitable on its own, but rather their bloated operating expenses related to auto insurance. You can also see the re-investment returns of these profits is around 5-7% for most financials I've seen. 

If it's one thing insurance companies are good at, it's assessing risk..and making profits.  They offer products that make them money while exposing themselves to the least amount of risk.  It defies belief that a company that is expert in these areas would keep offering a product that loses them money year after year after year. And you used the word "stagnant".  An industry could make $1 billion a year for 20 years..and technically the profits would be "stagnant". Stagnant and losing money are different things.

And these industry talking points are PR 101.  An industry viewed as negative or distasteful (politics, insurance, etc) will get their PR arms going in full swing.  They'll have talking points (in this case less than 2% profit, no money to be made, stagnant, etc).  They'll literally have everyone in the industry top down repeat those as often as possible, along with professional lobbyist, and the hope is those things get repeated enough and are believed by Joe Public and become "fact".

I expect (but don't admire) that someone who has worked or works in that industry would parrot those company talking points.

And I don't expect we'll ever agree on this industry being profitable.  Which is fine.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 06:12:56 pm by rrocket »

Offline me_2

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2019, 08:45:32 pm »
It makes me think maybe I should consider the usage-based insurance thing, but I'm not going to go there just yet.
$118/month isn't terrible, but I hate the principle of paying more for the same thing, and the fact that they offered accident forgiveness for free for two years and then started charge for it without telling me in the cover letter.  I had to look in the details to find that out.

If you're a CAA member, it might be worth checking with them as well.  I switched over about 5 years ago.

I am a member and the quote that I got a few months ago was much higher than what I was & will be paying.  Thanks for the suggestion, though!

My son has insured my (now his) Volt #2 thru the CAA insurance cie they deal with (I forget the cie's name) but I notice car insurance business is a moving target, no-one seem to have the same customer profile.
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Offline tooscoops

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2019, 11:33:14 am »
i was siding with Jacob et al previous.. then I read your post ron... and it made me agree with them more.

are you attempting to say that they shouldn't hold expenses as costs? all businesses should make a profit. with the risk involved in theirs, I'm sure they have years where the profit is astronomical... but also years of devastating losses. in the end, a few points of profit is fine. I do appreciate your points and facts though. does show a bit more insight into the systems numbers.

while I wish insurance wasn't necessary, it totally is. most people can't afford the car they drive as it sits, let alone fixing damage they may cause themselves to it or to others in the case of an accident.
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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2019, 01:21:26 pm »
It doesn't really make sense.

Statistically, Ontario is the safest region to drive in North America.  Which means fewer deaths.  Fewer accidents.  Fewer medical claims.

What Jacob repeating is the :censor: the insurance companies foist on people so they nod their head in agreement when premiums rise.

You can go and see that accidents have declined over the years...while profits have steadily gone up.  Oh..and don't forget that not only have our premiums gone up, but our medical coverages have gone down.  So we're continually paying more...for less.

https://www.insauga.com/are-car-insurance-companies-in-ontario-ripping-us-off


Injuries and deaths have declined. Actual crashes have not. And repair costs have skyrocketed. This is a material fact, and now I"m not working in that industry anymore I have no skin in the game. Profits from insurance activities have remained stagnant, and the margin on insurance is less than 2 percent in most cases. In Ontario right now, most insurance activity is a loss.
In 2016, profits were $1.5 billion.

It's funny...your talking points are EXACTLY...like word for word... what my SIL says (she works in the industry). The. Exact. Same.

The insurance companies certainly have a well oiled disinformation program.

Yep. you got me. Pulled that info out of my ass.  ::)
Auto is a money loser.  Only reason our company (and i assume all others) are profitable is because of investment income.

Offline JacobBlack

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2019, 02:07:15 pm »
The profits I mentioned were specifically for auto insurance divisions.  $1.5 billion.  Which was an increase of nearly 60% since 2012. The insurance industry as a whole (all arms of insurance) profits is many times that (obviously).  You can also go back in time (not sure how long you've been an Ontarian?) and see that PRIOR to the introduction of No Fault Insurance in early 1990s, profits actually WERE pretty meager.  But after No Fault, auto insurance companies profits skyrocketed. 

We agree on "no fault" - it's a fundamentally bad platform. It's also why motorcycle insurance in Ontario is so bad.

Offline rrocket

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2019, 04:19:00 pm »
I wish we only had to have ONE liability policy despite owning multiple cars....because you can only drive one car at a time.

I forget which countries do that...

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2019, 04:21:03 pm »


Only reason our company (and i assume all others) are profitable is because of investment income.

Reading financials, there's little doubt auto is NOT the bread and butter of their business profits, that's for sure.

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2019, 05:47:18 pm »
I wish we only had to have ONE liability policy despite owning multiple cars....because you can only drive one car at a time.

I forget which countries do that...

I remember when i was a kid in NB talks about that.  Some people had 2 cars insured as long as the other stayed in the driveway.

Offline marcus_go

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Re: 20% increase in premium with no new claim/ticket??
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2019, 10:35:01 pm »
I just renewed my insurance here in BC and it came to over $2200 for the year on my G35. That coverage include collision and comprehensive, but still, it was about a $300 increase over last year and I have no at fault claims.

I agree with others here that auto insurance is not very profitable. Too many claims combined with increases in repair costs and injury claims means little profit. Here in BC people are very litigious, which further increases costs. Caps are in place now, but there is word here that we might go to no fault. Not sure what the best solution is, but it appears to be a widespread issue across the country.