Topic: UAW vs. The World

[rrocket]

Am starting to wonder if this could be beginning of end for auto manufacturing in Michigan. Big kudos to Unifor for seeing the big picture and not demanding ridiculous terms in their negotiating here. "Domestic" manufacturing is hanging on by a thread here and everyone knows it.

But in the US? They can't fathom that huge contract demands will make the Big 2+1 even less competitive than they already are. They can't fathom that their job requires no skill at all and can be done in 3rd World Countries. They can't fathom that they are dealing against not competition but GLOBAL competition. For both product and building car plants.

Seems like they want to burn it all down if their demands aren't met.

Good article

http://www.autoextremist.com/

Is this just posturing?

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/25/business/ford-battery-plant-pause/index.html

[ArticSteve]

I think it's just typical negotiations.  Look at the Hollywood strike ... 146 days.

I don't have a huge bug up my *ss on Unions in the private sector because private sector, no matter the industry or company, is run 100% by Wall Street. 

Now Unions in the public sector are a death blow.

[rrocket]

I think it's just typical negotiations. 

Asking for a 46 percent wage increase and a 32 hour work week is anything but typical IMO.

[JohnnyMac]

I think it's just typical negotiations. 

Asking for a 46 percent wage increase and a 32 hour work week is anything but typical IMO.

Jesus, that'd be nice wouldn't it.  I guess there is no harm in asking right?  For the most part, I don't feel like unions add a whole lot to the workforce right now.  The battles they fought for decades ago are long won and the major things like workplace safety, decent wages, benefits, etc, have all been established.  That's not to say that I don't think that there are sectors that benefit from unions still, just as a general rule I'm thinking they are mostly unnecessary. 

Me and AS kind of agree that government unions are mostly a waste, but even then I still think the health care workers and teachers likely still get more out of unions than they give up by having them.  But admin staff in government, yeah I don't think their lives are enhanced by their union. 

I've seen too many instances where a unions objectives don't align with their members.  Having a wife that works for a large government funded university, with countless unions to deal with, I hear all the stories on the that happens in there.

[Jaeger]

  For the most part, I don't feel like unions add a whole lot to the workforce right now.  The battles they fought for decades ago are long won and the major things like workplace safety, decent wages, benefits, etc, have all been established.  That's not to say that I don't think that there are sectors that benefit from unions still, just as a general rule I'm thinking they are mostly unnecessary. 

 

Me and AS kind of agree that government unions are mostly a waste, but even then I still think the health care workers and teachers likely still get more out of unions than they give up by having them.  But admin staff in government, yeah I don't think their lives are enhanced by their union. 

 

[OliverD]

Unions are kind of a necessity (or necessary evil) for government positions though, because all the roles and compensation are exactly prescribed. It's not like the private sector where two people with the same experience and role have differing compensation based on their value to the company. So you need collective bargaining because doing it as an individual is impossible.

[JohnnyMac]

Unions are kind of a necessity (or necessary evil) for government positions though, because all the roles and compensation are exactly prescribed. It's not like the private sector where two people with the same experience and role have differing compensation based on their value to the company. So you need collective bargaining because doing it as an individual is impossible.

That's not universal though.  My wife and I have never been part of a union, which means we have never had to pay union dues, and yet, we get cost of living increases that typically match union positions.  We are no more protected or at risk of losing our jobs than any union, and typically people get let go due to issues with their work and work ethic, and not based on seniority.  So while I agree that some positions in government likely benefit from having a union, there are LOADS of positions where it's just wasted money and time.  At one time, unions were necessary, we can thank unions for many many things we take for granted nowadays like work place safety, benefits, pensions, etc, but with those battles in the past, I just don't see how our admin staff are getting anything more out of their union than what me and my wife get from the same employers.

[ArticSteve]

The thing about unions is bad employees can't be fired unless they commit aggravated assault or are caught on camera engaging in sex acts.  Happened at my wife's office.  Ultra modern 3 story complex.  Camera's all over the place.  What these 3, yes 3!, idiots didn't realize that once the building was secured at night the interior cameras activated.

[OliverD]

Unions are kind of a necessity (or necessary evil) for government positions though, because all the roles and compensation are exactly prescribed. It's not like the private sector where two people with the same experience and role have differing compensation based on their value to the company. So you need collective bargaining because doing it as an individual is impossible.

That's not universal though.  My wife and I have never been part of a union, which means we have never had to pay union dues, and yet, we get cost of living increases that typically match union positions.  We are no more protected or at risk of losing our jobs than any union, and typically people get let go due to issues with their work and work ethic, and not based on seniority.  So while I agree that some positions in government likely benefit from having a union, there are LOADS of positions where it's just wasted money and time.  At one time, unions were necessary, we can thank unions for many many things we take for granted nowadays like work place safety, benefits, pensions, etc, but with those battles in the past, I just don't see how our admin staff are getting anything more out of their union than what me and my wife get from the same employers.

Sure, but if you feel your wage is unfair for whatever reason, what recourse do you have, aside from quitting?

[JohnnyMac]

Unions are kind of a necessity (or necessary evil) for government positions though, because all the roles and compensation are exactly prescribed. It's not like the private sector where two people with the same experience and role have differing compensation based on their value to the company. So you need collective bargaining because doing it as an individual is impossible.

That's not universal though.  My wife and I have never been part of a union, which means we have never had to pay union dues, and yet, we get cost of living increases that typically match union positions.  We are no more protected or at risk of losing our jobs than any union, and typically people get let go due to issues with their work and work ethic, and not based on seniority.  So while I agree that some positions in government likely benefit from having a union, there are LOADS of positions where it's just wasted money and time.  At one time, unions were necessary, we can thank unions for many many things we take for granted nowadays like work place safety, benefits, pensions, etc, but with those battles in the past, I just don't see how our admin staff are getting anything more out of their union than what me and my wife get from the same employers.

Sure, but if you feel your wage is unfair for whatever reason, what recourse do you have, aside from quitting?

Why is quitting not something that should be considered for these types of positions?  Our office has had a whole heap of auditors snagged by the Feds, all because of pay.  Now that's completely different for teachers and health care workers, as there are only so many private schools/medical facilities/organizations to choose from.  But the option for admin staff, they could literally go anywhere, just like myself, if I wanted I could go any number of places and make more money. 

[OliverD]

Unions are kind of a necessity (or necessary evil) for government positions though, because all the roles and compensation are exactly prescribed. It's not like the private sector where two people with the same experience and role have differing compensation based on their value to the company. So you need collective bargaining because doing it as an individual is impossible.

That's not universal though.  My wife and I have never been part of a union, which means we have never had to pay union dues, and yet, we get cost of living increases that typically match union positions.  We are no more protected or at risk of losing our jobs than any union, and typically people get let go due to issues with their work and work ethic, and not based on seniority.  So while I agree that some positions in government likely benefit from having a union, there are LOADS of positions where it's just wasted money and time.  At one time, unions were necessary, we can thank unions for many many things we take for granted nowadays like work place safety, benefits, pensions, etc, but with those battles in the past, I just don't see how our admin staff are getting anything more out of their union than what me and my wife get from the same employers.

Sure, but if you feel your wage is unfair for whatever reason, what recourse do you have, aside from quitting?

Why is quitting not something that should be considered for these types of positions?  Our office has had a whole heap of auditors snagged by the Feds, all because of pay.  Now that's completely different for teachers and health care workers, as there are only so many private schools/medical facilities/organizations to choose from.  But the option for admin staff, they could literally go anywhere, just like myself, if I wanted I could go any number of places and make more money.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered – just that it's unfortunately the only option. It basically means you are in a position where you are unable to advocate for yourself on certain issues and you don't have representation from a group that can advocate on your behalf. To me that seems unappealing.

[Fobroader]

I think it's just typical negotiations. 

Asking for a 46 percent wage increase and a 32 hour work week is anything but typical IMO.

I couldn't imagine having the cojones of asking that in any other job and thinking its acceptable.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

I think it's just typical negotiations. 

Asking for a 46 percent wage increase and a 32 hour work week is anything but typical IMO.

I couldn't imagine having the cojones of asking that in any other job and thinking its acceptable.

Ehn, take it with a grain of salt.  The union knows they won't get it, but they also won't get anything they're asking for.  They hope to meet somewhere in the middle - therefore they ask for the an excessive raise, and hope to settle somewhere more reasonable.  Basic negotiating tactic...

[Fobroader]

Still, asking for more pay for less hours, thats just ignorant.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Still, asking for more pay for less hours, thats just ignorant.

Once again, negotiating tactic.  It's their starting position. 

[quadzilla]

The podcast from NYT called The Daily did an episode about the upcoming (now happening) strike and some history of automakers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/12/podcasts/the-daily/ford-general-motors-strike.html
(31 minutes long)

[JohnnyMac]

Unions are kind of a necessity (or necessary evil) for government positions though, because all the roles and compensation are exactly prescribed. It's not like the private sector where two people with the same experience and role have differing compensation based on their value to the company. So you need collective bargaining because doing it as an individual is impossible.

That's not universal though.  My wife and I have never been part of a union, which means we have never had to pay union dues, and yet, we get cost of living increases that typically match union positions.  We are no more protected or at risk of losing our jobs than any union, and typically people get let go due to issues with their work and work ethic, and not based on seniority.  So while I agree that some positions in government likely benefit from having a union, there are LOADS of positions where it's just wasted money and time.  At one time, unions were necessary, we can thank unions for many many things we take for granted nowadays like work place safety, benefits, pensions, etc, but with those battles in the past, I just don't see how our admin staff are getting anything more out of their union than what me and my wife get from the same employers.

Sure, but if you feel your wage is unfair for whatever reason, what recourse do you have, aside from quitting?

Why is quitting not something that should be considered for these types of positions?  Our office has had a whole heap of auditors snagged by the Feds, all because of pay.  Now that's completely different for teachers and health care workers, as there are only so many private schools/medical facilities/organizations to choose from.  But the option for admin staff, they could literally go anywhere, just like myself, if I wanted I could go any number of places and make more money.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered – just that it's unfortunately the only option. It basically means you are in a position where you are unable to advocate for yourself on certain issues and you don't have representation from a group that can advocate on your behalf. To me that seems unappealing.

Me and my wife have never been part of a union, in organizations that have many unions, and we’ve never felt we needed a union or felt we needed someone to advocate for us.  Every person that I have worked with that are part of a union have never once said how they love being part of one and if you ask them if they felt their union dues were worth it none of them would say they were.  But I don’t work with nurses or educators.

[ArticSteve]

Nurses need union protection, teachers definitely don't.

[rrocket]

I'm OK with unions. Particularly when they see "the big picture" as Unifor's latest shows. Or when their demands are rooted in reality.

The UAW? Not so much...

Remember..this is a very corrupt union (has been for some time) with a couple of presidents being sentenced to jail within the last year or so for corruption. I mean...FFS..this union owns a country club ranked in Top 50 in US!

I think if you're not near Detroit, you wouldn't know about all these UAW shenanigans.

[rrocket]

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/09/22/automakers-question-uaw-strike-motives-after-leaked-messages.html