Topic: Comparison Test: 2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid vs 2013 Volkswagen Golf Wagon TDI

[dirtyjeffer]

1) The significant discrepancy between real world driving and the Canadian/US EPA estimates for the C-Max. I know this was a topic of heated discussion here in another thread on this forum.

remember the $#&@ hitting the fan when Hyundai/Kia models were missing their fuel economy ratings...here we have yet another one, off by a significantly larger margin (yet again), and i don't see the usual suspects mentioning a word about it.

quelle surprise.

[sailor723]

I would think that the resale nod would go to VW as well.  VW vs Ford   Diesel vs Hybrid etc etc

[dirtyjeffer]

The only data not included in the article is potential resale value (depreciation) of each vehicle, but as that info varies depending how long you intend to keep the vehicle, and probably isn't available for the brand-new C-Max anyway, it's a non-starter.

while there isn't data for the C-Max yet, the "safe money" is on the VW...VWs have good residual values and diesels demand a premium as well...even for "older ones", i would say the price paid for a 7 year old well maintained VW TDi will bring you more money than a 7 year old Ford Hybrid...for one, it's a Ford, which historically don't hold their value very well and secondly, it's a hybrid, so the battery issue may scare some, or drive the price down (in case of replacement).

[Danno001]

Good review. I'd like to see a similar review with the Prius V instead of the C-Max.

I to welcome some competition in North America in regards to passenger diesel options.

I'm still floored that manufactures lately put out and justify obscure vehicles with low volume sales but consistently debate the market for a diesel vehicle in N/A.

I'm I the only one who finds this odd ?

Me as well.   The annoying thing about this particular C-max is that a diesel version already exists that would probably only  need an exhaust clean up.
I blame a lot of the lack of diesels on Transport Canada. When they bought into the current EPA emission specs for gas engines they easily could have adopt Euro V for diesels and then we could have had many more diesels...it might have been a small political fight but probably not.  AND the VW diesels would be more economical and be available in the Tiguan.  There might have been a problem that Cdn spec  diesels could not have been exported to the USA but how often does that happen?

North American vehicle standards go beyond emissions, CMVSS and FMVSS are pretty well aligned aside form speedo markings and DRLs. Those standards would have to be met as well. There are significant safety differences Europe to NA having had visibility on the process myself.

[hemusbull]

It is unbelievable to give a measurement task to readers, even to a guy who who is "car crazy". All of you are amazed by German engineered cars like this one overpriced and archaic design TDI. But no one appreciate the German approach to comparison of the cars. In AutoBild you can found exactly this - the operational costs for a regular use in long tirm all compared vehicles given by the tester for the reader in euro per kilometer! That's it.

[danboo]

I'd really love to know the ownership cost of new diesels.
I've been told by more than one person the new emission requirements have added very expensive and complex systems to diesels.

I'll be replacing my current vehicle soon and will be looking for a very specific list of needs that are hard to fill.  (decent fuel economy, comfy travel car, towing capacity - a blend of daily driver and travel vehicle)   On paper the diesels seem perfect.

[dave_b]

"As far as I’m concerned, that’s a double win for the Golf Wagon TDI, achieving better performance without any particular effort on the part of the driver, and actually living up to tested and advertised consumption figures."

This to me is the strength of the TDI. I don't want to have to make flowers grow on my dashboard, make dashboard lights turn from white to green, or keep half my brain focused on getting into EV mode to get great fuel efficiency; I just want to drive the car. Make mine a manual, please.

[jyarkony]

"At 35k the TDI wagon is just too spendy."

I agree, at that point the value proposition starts to fade.........are the Golfs still built in Germany?  Is that the problem or is it just a case of VW having no competition in this segment and charging whatever the market will bare?

I believe it is still built in Germany. Next Golf will be built in Mexico or Brazil I think, and should be cheaper.

Golf Wagon built in Mexico

http://www.autos.ca/galleries/2013/index.php?level=picture&id=3339

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_Identification_Number

[whaddaiknow]

I would think that the resale nod would go to VW as well.  VW vs Ford   Diesel vs Hybrid etc etc

I actually can't blame the author for that. The final nail in the coffin was hammered in on the second page. He managed to put the C-Max hybrid down as humanely as possible 

[tpl]

North American vehicle standards go beyond emissions, CMVSS and FMVSS are pretty well aligned aside form speedo markings and DRLs. Those standards would have to be met as well. There are significant safety differences Europe to NA having had visibility on the process myself.

For a car like the C-max I wonder just how different it is under the skin.  The TDI perhaps.
Speedos are easy... just need the LHD console. We no longer require KMs only nor do we require miles as well.  DRLs are probably just  software. My 2008 GTI has software settings for about 4 different DRL settings of which at least 3 work with no wiring changes. Canada specifically allows, maybe even encourages the ECE headlight pattern  and my 2003 BMW tail lights ( amber indicators that year) were identical to the UK ones.

Are the crash standards different any more now that the NTHSA does offset crashes?


My point being.... for imported cars who cares if they have minor differences to the US versions.  Now I would agree if the Gov started to prevent those JDM 15 year old RHD cars from being imported.

[Snowman]

No cost per km comparison? That is the most important. Fail.

Seriously Snowman?  I hope you forgot the sarcasm emoticon there...or else you forgot your grumpy meds today!
This was an awesome comparison - a level of practical detail that NONE of the big-time mags or websites would delve into (ease of child seat installation, ease of handling similar cargo loads, actual - not just "listed" - differences in front and rear seat roominess, etc.)

And Jonathon gives you all the info you need to do YOUR OWN cost per km comparison, which is far more relevant than if he did it for you.  Purchase price of each vehicle (with comparison of equipment levels)?  Check.  Actual vs listed gas mileage?  Check.  I can use that data, along with my own typical driving distances (probably not the same as Jonathon's), cost of fuel locally (again may be different), local insurance costs for each vehicle (very likely to be different for me compared to Southern Ontario), to calculate my own "cost per km" comparison.

The only data not included in the article is potential resale value (depreciation) of each vehicle, but as that info varies depending how long you intend to keep the vehicle, and probably isn't available for the brand-new C-Max anyway, it's a non-starter.

Again, great review.  It's why autos.ca kick the sh!te out of every other auto website (insideline used to be good competition, but since they've folded into edmunds again it's not even close...)

I disagree and there is no weight given to the cost/km in the comparison despite highlighting efficiencies.  Please don't confuse being grumpy with asking hard questions or finding holes in the article. That is what I get paid for.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

I'd really love to know the ownership cost of new diesels.
I've been told by more than one person the new emission requirements have added very expensive and complex systems to diesels.

I'll be replacing my current vehicle soon and will be looking for a very specific list of needs that are hard to fill.  (decent fuel economy, comfy travel car, towing capacity - a blend of daily driver and travel vehicle)   On paper the diesels seem perfect.

I'm at 140K on my 2010 Golf Wagon TDI, with no real issues. Oil change and tire rotations every 16K at $115 are kind of pricey but acceptable. Only problem I suffered is a high humidity cold weather start issue. It's a known problem with a kit available from VW to address it, which was replaced on mine (after the warranty expired, with 50% goodwill from VW which I think should have fully covered becuase it's a design issue) with no problems since or otherwise.

On my 2001 Golf TDI I drove to 320kms had to replace glow plug relays and clean the Mass Air Flow Sensor/EGR due to the high sulphur diesel fuel at that time, but nothing else drivetrain related.

Although I'm attracted to other vehicles, and actually really liked my brief drive in a C-MAX I think I'd still choose another Golf Wagon TDI. Prefer the height of the C-MAX, and a Golf Plus or Tiguan TDI would probably get my vote, but neither are available here so I'd choose the car I bought again if forced into the market today. Yes, I must be very boring. 

[jyarkony]

No cost per km comparison? That is the most important. Fail.

Seriously Snowman?  I hope you forgot the sarcasm emoticon there...or else you forgot your grumpy meds today!
This was an awesome comparison - a level of practical detail that NONE of the big-time mags or websites would delve into (ease of child seat installation, ease of handling similar cargo loads, actual - not just "listed" - differences in front and rear seat roominess, etc.)

And Jonathon gives you all the info you need to do YOUR OWN cost per km comparison, which is far more relevant than if he did it for you.  Purchase price of each vehicle (with comparison of equipment levels)?  Check.  Actual vs listed gas mileage?  Check.  I can use that data, along with my own typical driving distances (probably not the same as Jonathon's), cost of fuel locally (again may be different), local insurance costs for each vehicle (very likely to be different for me compared to Southern Ontario), to calculate my own "cost per km" comparison.

The only data not included in the article is potential resale value (depreciation) of each vehicle, but as that info varies depending how long you intend to keep the vehicle, and probably isn't available for the brand-new C-Max anyway, it's a non-starter.

Again, great review.  It's why autos.ca kick the sh!te out of every other auto website (insideline used to be good competition, but since they've folded into edmunds again it's not even close...)

I disagree and there is no weight given to the cost/km in the comparison despite highlighting efficiencies.  Please don't confuse being grumpy with asking hard questions or finding holes in the article. That is what I get paid for.

I think that's an interesting idea, and agree that cost per km is an important factor, too, although I've never seen it in any of the comparisons I typically read. It would be easy enough to calculate an estimated fuel costs/km based on average diesel/gas price and my observed fuel consumption. However, average fuel prices according to http://www2.nrcan.gc.ca/eneene/sources/pripri/prices_byfuel_e.cfm have diesel 7 cents more than gas, but it was quite the opposite at the gas stations here in GTA when I had the vehicles... this strikes me as a slippery slope, and every time you factor in one cost, you can find another cost that has not been considered, not to mention regional variances... These observed fuel consumptions are also simply, um, observational, and not necessarily scientific, so feel free to take them with a grain of salt... in lieu of payment. (The salt is in the mail.)

[cruzzer]

I'll agree with most here, a good test. And I'll agree too that the VW diesels are overpriced and need some good competition to rectify that. Autos.ca provides some of the better and more useable information on cars that I might want to buy. Thanks.

[JRM]

"At 35k the TDI wagon is just too spendy."

I agree, at that point the value proposition starts to fade.........are the Golfs still built in Germany?  Is that the problem or is it just a case of VW having no competition in this segment and charging whatever the market will bare?

The $35K is for the Highline which has a big sunroof, leather seating and a few other features.  The Comfortline TDI  wagon with connectivity package  and DSG tranny can be had for $29,200.00 plus feight (Made in Mexico) of $1,395.00 and should be comparable feature wise with the C-Max, thus making a much better value proposition.

[Snowman]

No cost per km comparison? That is the most important. Fail.

Seriously Snowman?  I hope you forgot the sarcasm emoticon there...or else you forgot your grumpy meds today!
This was an awesome comparison - a level of practical detail that NONE of the big-time mags or websites would delve into (ease of child seat installation, ease of handling similar cargo loads, actual - not just "listed" - differences in front and rear seat roominess, etc.)

And Jonathon gives you all the info you need to do YOUR OWN cost per km comparison, which is far more relevant than if he did it for you.  Purchase price of each vehicle (with comparison of equipment levels)?  Check.  Actual vs listed gas mileage?  Check.  I can use that data, along with my own typical driving distances (probably not the same as Jonathon's), cost of fuel locally (again may be different), local insurance costs for each vehicle (very likely to be different for me compared to Southern Ontario), to calculate my own "cost per km" comparison.

The only data not included in the article is potential resale value (depreciation) of each vehicle, but as that info varies depending how long you intend to keep the vehicle, and probably isn't available for the brand-new C-Max anyway, it's a non-starter.

Again, great review.  It's why autos.ca kick the sh!te out of every other auto website (insideline used to be good competition, but since they've folded into edmunds again it's not even close...)

I disagree and there is no weight given to the cost/km in the comparison despite highlighting efficiencies.  Please don't confuse being grumpy with asking hard questions or finding holes in the article. That is what I get paid for.

I think that's an interesting idea, and agree that cost per km is an important factor, too, although I've never seen it in any of the comparisons I typically read. It would be easy enough to calculate an estimated fuel costs/km based on average diesel/gas price and my observed fuel consumption. However, average fuel prices according to http://www2.nrcan.gc.ca/eneene/sources/pripri/prices_byfuel_e.cfm have diesel 7 cents more than gas, but it was quite the opposite at the gas stations here in GTA when I had the vehicles... this strikes me as a slippery slope, and every time you factor in one cost, you can find another cost that has not been considered, not to mention regional variances... These observed fuel consumptions are also simply, um, observational, and not necessarily scientific, so feel free to take them with a grain of salt... in lieu of payment. (The salt is in the mail.)

JV: 4000 or more klicks is a good opportunity to track and report fuel consumption and costs. I'm sure there are enough bean counters around here to calculate amortization and depreciation. This would be fun!

[johngenx]

The C-Max barely beats our Corolla for fuel economy.   

[Northernridge]

The C-Max barely beats our Corolla for fuel economy.   

That's amazing...many hybrids are a scam and a sham. Or more generously, a novelty.

[Spec5]

Hey GREAT article! Way to take the initiative and write a review that no "mainstream" magazine seems to want to go near.

Having a buddy that just bought a TDI Highline and having driven it myself I can say it is an extremely nice car. I'd pay whatever the extra price penalty is at purchase (and some have noted you don't need to get the Highline to get the TDI Wagon) and sleep better at night knowing whatever issues you may have at warranties end are likely to be a lot less "complicated" and better known to the average mechanic than those that might affect a hybrid.

Something else I've been wondering. Whats the performance like on a hybrid after 5 years? Any rechargeable battery I've ever had typically does not last as long as it originally did when first purchased.

[Fobroader]

The C-Max barely beats our Corolla for fuel economy.   

That's amazing...many hybrids are a scam and a sham. Or more generously, a novelty.

I think you hit it on the head, its hip to be green and these things fall under that umbrella. You cant show up at a movie premiere in a hemi 'Cuda, the hippies will crucify you, show up in a Prius, or whatever equivalent, and everyone think you are a hero.