Topic: 2002 Subaru Legacy L Wagon Pinging

[Vilici]

This summer my wife and I went on a  trip from Vancouver, BC to Las Vegas, Nevada and back.
Thru states with higher elevation (Oregon, Idaho and Utah) on our way to and from Las Vegas car was
performing almost flawlessly. I couldn't tell for sure as we were driving 130kmph+  
(80mph+) and almost never in the range when the ping is most noticable (30-70 kmph with 2,000  
to 2750 rpm). But one thing is for sure: What ever was inside my engine (in form of carbon
deposits) was gone. It's got to be burnt after 2,250km (1,400miles) (to Las Vegas) at 3,000+ rpm.  

Anyway, when we arrived in Las Vegas at 40C (104F) with A/C on, engine was pinging at any engine speed
except when idling, even with highest octane fuel. At one point, I'm not 100% sure, engine was still running for about
half a sec. after I turned if off (diesel effect). I cannot confirm this and it happened only once.  

Btw, I've received a call from SOC representative today. I'll try to push them as much as I can to fix this  
now that I know that new 2.5L H4 engine for my car is priced at CND $9,280.70 in Don Docksteader Subaru,
Vancouver, BC. This is only for the engine. Price tag for labour is not known but my guess it is pretty
much the same as engine. OK, let's say it's 50% of the engine value. Still, it's close to CDN $14K.  

One more thing. I'm trying to reach somebody from "Olsen on Your Side" in order to report this problem.  
http://www.vancouvertelevision.com/olsen.jsp I'll keep you posted. Btw, they called me today. Yeeeeeee

[Vilici]

FYI, I forgot to add taxes on top of that engine pricing but you got the point.

Just a quick note:

Today, just after 3pm, I've received a call from Don Docksteader where they are informing me that  
Subaru of Canada  Customer Service Tech will be in Vancouver to test drive my car and record it
all in a "black box" as he called it.  
More important, in the conversation I was told that Don Docksteader has 4 (four) Outback
/Legacy/Forester owners that are complaining about this. I was also told that they've been having problems mostly with 2003 models.

I cannot cheer yet as "I do not see the light at the end of the tunnel" but this is something. At least we're moving from the dead point. Before it would take them weeks before I'd got any call/reply.  

I would encourage you all (with this problem) to write a letter explaining all the trouble you've been having and send it to SoC or SoA customer rep. and CC it to your local dealership.  

Send me an e-mail and I'll provide you  with phone/fax numbers, names and other details if you want to contact SoC. If you want I'll send you copy of the letter I sent ot SoC CSR.


Cheers,
Voja

[johngenx]

Just in case anyone is wondering, fuel octane requirements go DOWN as you rise in elevation above sea level.

Here's a list of factors... (http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/gas_qanda/api_octane.shtml)

Temperature - Generally, the hotter the ambient air and engine coolant, the greater the octane requirement.

Altitude - The higher the altitude above sea level, the lower the octane requirement. Modern computer-controlled engines adjust spark timing and air-fuel ratio to compensate for changes in barometric pressure, and thus the effect of altitude on octane requirement is smaller in these vehicles.

Humidity - The drier the air, the greater the octane requirement. The recommendations that vehicle manufacturers give are for normal- to low-humidity levels.

Your engine's spark timing - The octane requirement increases as the spark timing is advanced. Both the basic setting of the spark timing and the operation of the automatic spark advance mechanisms are important in controlling knock. In some computer controlled engines, the spark timing can only be changed by replacing modules in the computer. If they are equipped with knock sensors, these computer controlled engines have the ability to retard the ignition temporarily when a sensor detects knock. This temporarily reduces the octane requirement and may also temporarily reduce vehicle performance.

Method of driving - Rapid acceleration and heavy loading, such as pulling a trailer or climbing a hill, may result in a greater octane requirement. Stop-and-go driving and excessive idling can increase octane requirements by causing the buildup of combustion chamber deposits.

Malfunctions of emission control systems - An improperly functioning emissions control system can affect the octane requirement by changing the air-fuel mixture or by not providing dilution gases through the exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system. If a malfunction occurs, your vehicle should be taken to a qualified vehicle service mechanic. Some problems are indicated by warning lights on the driver's instrument panel.

[johngenx]

In case you're wondering why, reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.

Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.

Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.

[saint_satan]

You guys are freakin' me out>  I thought Subaru was a decent product.  After reading the Star,lemonaid, posts from OVR50 and some posts here I'm not so convinced.  A small company needs to be very careful with their reputation......

[Vilici]

If anybody is still following this post I just wanted to let you know that, after picking up my car from Subaru car service shop (Don Docksteader Motors Ltd, Vancouver, BC, Canada) I believe my engine does not ping/detonate any more.
I'm using low octane fuel (87 aki), drove it for the past four days and no pinging sound is coming from the engine compartment. I must say that true test will be once daily temp. goes above 25C which I can to next summer, but this looks/sounds promising.

Let me know if you need more details.  

Cheers  

[Mdxtasy]

Thanks for the update Vilici.  Good to hear that your problems are solved.

[Mark]

Vilici, did they explain the problem and the fix?  Glad your car is back to normal.

[maritime_storm]

Just curious, has anyone of you tried the ancient water trickled down the Carburator trick on these cars or in this case water trickled into the throttle body? This almost sounds like a carbon build up problem.

[Vilici]

Service shop manager told me that they cleaned some carbon deposits from the engine and put thicker head gaskets.  
Thicker head gasket reduced compression inside cylinders and now I have no problems with 87 aki gas.  
Engine is performing very good so far. I'll have real test next summer when the daily temp is above 25C ~ 80F. That's when the engine was running really bad.  

Cheers,
Voja

[Barrie1]

Yes I have done the old water trick down the carb or thru the injectors when possible. It does break up the carbon pretty good.

[Mark]

Yikes guys, what does the water do, steam clean the pistons?  Is that safe?  (look who I'm asking, Barrie who runs a 20 year old pickup truck down a dragstrip pushing what 350 hp? )  Safe for the engine I mean.

[Barrie1]

No its more like 430 HP. We used an old Coke bottle, the small glass one and filled it with water. With the Breather off the engine we would rev the engine as hi as it could go within reason and slowly pour the water down the carb. Had some old lady customers that always had problems from driving too slow. The water breaks up the Carbon deposits and helps move them thru the engine. A little of amount of water induced that way won't harm the engine at all.

[maritime_storm]

And just to add, you described what it does perfectly, steam cleans the combustion chambers. Follow that procedure with an oil change, it does not harm but a lot of good on engines a that are carboned up{older carburated & TBI engines or those who drive vehicles very very easy}.