Topic: 8-Vehicle 3-Row SUV Comparison - Mazda CX-90 v. (nearly) Everyone

[Blueprint]

Meh, for me a well designed touch screen is way less distracting than any rotary dial/mouse/trackpad gizmo

Strange how Mazda didn't make the screen with redundant touch capability, would be the best of both worlds. Touch screens can't be much more expensive nowadays

They specifically don't want drivers to be distracted, and their rotary control works very well with the limited menu options. I have a G90 this week and here the rotary is confusing because just too many pages and layers.

[Jaeger]

Meh, for me a well designed touch screen is way less distracting than any rotary dial/mouse/trackpad gizmo

Strange how Mazda didn't make the screen with redundant touch capability, would be the best of both worlds. Touch screens can't be much more expensive nowadays

Agreed. I have both in my Genesis and use both.

[warp]

Been reading up and watching videos on the CX90. Sounds very promising. Usually 80% power sent to rear wheels, up to 50% can be sent to the front. Plus their version of brake based torque vectoring.

Should be good. The key thing seems to be having at least some power always going to the 'off' axle. That I believe is the Subaru secret. Think they are running around 60/40 on the CVT vehicles

Not so much to do with getting stuck as the overall driving feel in slippery conditions

I believe it's a RWD development of Mazda's existing FWD i-Active AWD system....which is slip and grip....lot of publicity material about sensors reading the road 200 times a second to detect slip yada yada....

[ktm525]

Nothing wrong with a RWD biased slip and grip. All the advantages of RWD with some winter capability when things get ugly.

[JG20]

Been reading up and watching videos on the CX90. Sounds very promising. Usually 80% power sent to rear wheels, up to 50% can be sent to the front. Plus their version of brake based torque vectoring.

Should be good. The key thing seems to be having at least some power always going to the 'off' axle. That I believe is the Subaru secret. Think they are running around 60/40 on the CVT vehicles

Not so much to do with getting stuck as the overall driving feel in slippery conditions

I believe it's a RWD development of Mazda's existing FWD i-Active AWD system....which is slip and grip....lot of publicity material about sensors reading the road 200 times a second to detect slip yada yada....

Yes, they still call it i-Active. There's one publication (Motor Authority) that claims 80% power sent to rear wheels in typical situations, not 100%. So it seems there's at least some power sent to the front wheels most of the time, if not always. Have you seen any other info on this?

[ArticSteve]

ZIPPO technical descriptions regarding the AWD systems.  Some are slip and grip and some aren't.   

And every one will get 99 percent of the people where they need to go in wintry conditions.

Nothingburger.

So missing the point.  Oddly unusual for you. 

Forget the friggin snow for a moment.  Heavy rain on highway curves at speed.  Slip and grip systems suck at that.

[ktm525]

Perhaps you can explain the differences for us between the Subaru multi plate center differential that varies the 60/40 torque split depending on conditions and the I-active system which is sending some "pre-load" torque continuously to the rear and Hondas SH system which runs at 90 front / 10 rear at steady state but can put up to 50% to the rears. All three require "slippage" to make adjustments but how big these differences are I am not sure. I do know systems have made huge leaps and bounds in performance so not sure my old biases have any basis anymore. Hondas seems to be the most advanced.

This is a good starting article.

https://www.automoblog.net/acura-sh-awd-explained/

[JG20]

With Subaru's system and Acura SH AWD, there's no slip, then grip as there's always power being sent to the rear.

With Subaru's current system in mainstream cars, I believe it starts off as 60f/40r up to 50/50. Center planetary diff takes care of this duty. Some models also have LSD in the rear. There's also brake based torque vectoring. Specialty models like the WRX and STI (dead) can send even more power to the wheels and also available with front LSD.

For Acura's latest SH AWD, I believe it's 70f/30r up to 30f/70r. Rear drive unit with clutch packs controls how much power gets sent to the rear. And rear has active torque vectoring that can send 100% of power to either side as required. Honda's latest i-VTM 4 is same mechanically but different tuning.

[bridgecity]

Perhaps you can explain the differences for us between the Subaru multi plate center differential that varies the 60/40 torque split depending on conditions and the I-active system which is sending some "pre-load" torque continuously to the rear and Hondas SH system which runs at 90 front / 10 rear at steady state but can put up to 50% to the rears. All three require "slippage" to make adjustments but how big these differences are I am not sure. I do know systems have made huge leaps and bounds in performance so not sure my old biases have any basis anymore. Hondas seems to be the most advanced.

This is a good starting article.

https://www.automoblog.net/acura-sh-awd-explained/

I don’t believe all systems require slippage. Adjustments are also  made outside of slippage based on throttle input, steering, etc. The SH-AWD system definitely varies input front/rear dependent on throttle and cornering.

[ArticSteve]

CX-90 specs show me open rear diff.  Similar to main stream Subaru's, as pointed out above, the rear diff is open and to mask this sub-standard level of engineering they attempt to use the rear brake caliper to mitigate the slip via traction control.  No different than Toyota claiming that their Tundra's are all equipped with "E"LSDs, which is just basic traction control.  It's garbage via-a-vis actual mechanical limited slip differentials.

Naturally, the reviewers gloss over these differences and direct all the focus on dash stitch work, info centers and VALUE.  Hence the mechanical TURD of the bunch is declared the winner.  A subset of people stay at Motel 6's, Ramada' et al, and the next morning consider themselves winners because they saved themselves some coin.

As the Savage says; have at it.     

[ArticSteve]

The SH-AWD system definitely varies input front/rear dependent on throttle and cornering.

Front to rear; throttle.

Rear "axis" (side to side); cornering.

[warp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wWY7JhNZ8U

Great video with a Mazda engineer explaining how the i-Active AWD system works. Although this video relates to the FWD based system, the principal will be the same for the RWD based development of i-Active. Essentially the non drive axle is dis-engaged when not needed for traction, thereby improving fuel economy, and when traction is needed which in turn is decided by various sensors i.e. steering wheel angle, temperature, power steering effort etc. the electronically controlled clutch pack engages the other axle

[rrocket]

ZIPPO technical descriptions regarding the AWD systems.  Some are slip and grip and some aren't.   

And every one will get 99 percent of the people where they need to go in wintry conditions.

Nothingburger.

So missing the point.  Oddly unusual for you. 

Forget the friggin snow for a moment.  Heavy rain on highway curves at speed.  Slip and grip systems suck at that.

It's a very specific, unusual circumstance.

Never an issue driving RWD cars, let alone AWD.

Again, to me, big nothingburger.

[ktm525]

With Subaru's system and Acura SH AWD, there's no slip, then grip as there's always power being sent to the rear.

With Subaru's current system in mainstream cars, I believe it starts off as 60f/40r up to 50/50. Center planetary diff takes care of this duty. Some models also have LSD in the rear. There's also brake based torque vectoring. Specialty models like the WRX and STI (dead) can send even more power to the wheels and also available with front LSD.

For Acura's latest SH AWD, I believe it's 70f/30r up to 30f/70r. Rear drive unit with clutch packs controls how much power gets sent to the rear. And rear has active torque vectoring that can send 100% of power to either side as required. Honda's latest i-VTM 4 is same mechanically but different tuning.

I think there is a lot of confusion out there. First off center differentials. Subaru is a clutch plate system that requires slippage for the car to know to adjust it's predetermined 60/40 split. It's advantage is that it is already 60/40 split. It relies on simple traction control  braking to adjust left/right front and back.

Acura SH AWD again has a clutch pack center differential combined with an angle gear.  Most contained within the transaxle itself. Of course it's party trick is the clutch pack rear differential that allows it to distribute power left and right without the brakes doing trickery.  Front wheels do rely on the brake system to direct power left and right. (or more accurately it uses the brakes to control the slipping wheel.)

Which is best for a family schlepping mobile? I doubt 99% of MDX drivers will ever push their vehicles into the corners to make the SH transfer power to the out rear wheel to drive the nose towards the apex lol. I don't think joe six pack and jane housewife understand or care.

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react. It is one of the inputs.

Here is a description of Audi's latest quattro:

[ktm525]

I have solved all the issues. The answer is a Dodge Durango SRT 392. 


https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a40934856/2022-acura-mdx-type-s-vs-2022-dodge-durango-srt-392-compared/

[bridgecity]

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react.

No, it isn’t.

[Gurgie]

With Subaru's system and Acura SH AWD, there's no slip, then grip as there's always power being sent to the rear.

With Subaru's current system in mainstream cars, I believe it starts off as 60f/40r up to 50/50. Center planetary diff takes care of this duty. Some models also have LSD in the rear. There's also brake based torque vectoring. Specialty models like the WRX and STI (dead) can send even more power to the wheels and also available with front LSD.

For Acura's latest SH AWD, I believe it's 70f/30r up to 30f/70r. Rear drive unit with clutch packs controls how much power gets sent to the rear. And rear has active torque vectoring that can send 100% of power to either side as required. Honda's latest i-VTM 4 is same mechanically but different tuning.

I think there is a lot of confusion out there. First off center differentials. Subaru is a clutch plate system that requires slippage for the car to know to adjust it's predetermined 60/40 split. It's advantage is that it is already 60/40 split. It relies on simple traction control  braking to adjust left/right front and back.

Acura SH AWD again has a clutch pack center differential combined with an angle gear.  Most contained within the transaxle itself. Of course it's party trick is the clutch pack rear differential that allows it to distribute power left and right without the brakes doing trickery.  Front wheels do rely on the brake system to direct power left and right. (or more accurately it uses the brakes to control the slipping wheel.)

Which is best for a family schlepping mobile? I doubt 99% of MDX drivers will ever push their vehicles into the corners to make the SH transfer power to the out rear wheel to drive the nose towards the apex lol. I don't think joe six pack and jane housewife understand or care.

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react. It is one of the inputs.

Here is a description of Audi's latest quattro:

With Subaru's system and Acura SH AWD, there's no slip, then grip as there's always power being sent to the rear.

With Subaru's current system in mainstream cars, I believe it starts off as 60f/40r up to 50/50. Center planetary diff takes care of this duty. Some models also have LSD in the rear. There's also brake based torque vectoring. Specialty models like the WRX and STI (dead) can send even more power to the wheels and also available with front LSD.

For Acura's latest SH AWD, I believe it's 70f/30r up to 30f/70r. Rear drive unit with clutch packs controls how much power gets sent to the rear. And rear has active torque vectoring that can send 100% of power to either side as required. Honda's latest i-VTM 4 is same mechanically but different tuning.

I think there is a lot of confusion out there. First off center differentials. Subaru is a clutch plate system that requires slippage for the car to know to adjust it's predetermined 60/40 split. It's advantage is that it is already 60/40 split. It relies on simple traction control  braking to adjust left/right front and back.

Acura SH AWD again has a clutch pack center differential combined with an angle gear.  Most contained within the transaxle itself. Of course it's party trick is the clutch pack rear differential that allows it to distribute power left and right without the brakes doing trickery.  Front wheels do rely on the brake system to direct power left and right. (or more accurately it uses the brakes to control the slipping wheel.)

Which is best for a family schlepping mobile? I doubt 99% of MDX drivers will ever push their vehicles into the corners to make the SH transfer power to the out rear wheel to drive the nose towards the apex lol. I don't think joe six pack and jane housewife understand or care.

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react. It is one of the inputs.

Here is a description of Audi's latest quattro:

You actually don't have to push hard in the corner to get the power to the outside wheel. I have the i-VTM4 in the Passport & on the center display you can select to see the power distribution to the wheels & when cornering even at hwy speeds it senses the yaw & steering input & sends the power to that outside rear wheel. The really interesting one is switching to "snow" mode at 80km/hr, you can actually feel the rear wheels engaging & the drag caused by it. Used it quite a bit this past winter on several snow covered drives. Still ain't no 2 speed transfer case like I had on the JGC or Wrangler, but pretty darn good for a minivan platform

Here's an excellent description & how each mode operates.

thttps://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-automobiles/releases/release-b50efa689496a1943cdccc46490ec2fd-honda-i-vtm4-all-wheel-drive

Sent from my SM-S901W using Tapatalk

[hoodlum]

Mazda did enable the touchscreen in the CX-90 for Apple Carplay and Android Auto while moving.  I believe this is a first for Mazda.  You still need to use the rotary dial for other functions, although I spend most of my time in CarPlay for navigation, music and other Apple apps.

[ktm525]

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react.

No, it isn’t.

Ok which one doesn't? Once you do a deep dive on  both Subaru and Audi mentions once it detects "variation in wheel speeds", ie. slippage it responds by adjusting the torque distribution. Do you see different?


ps. The Honda magic rear diff is quite incredible.

[bridgecity]

and despite all the literature slippage is at least partially required in all systems for them to react.

No, it isn’t.

Ok which one doesn't? Once you do a deep dive on  both Subaru and Audi mentions once it detects "variation in wheel speeds", ie. slippage it responds by adjusting the torque distribution. Do you see different?


ps. The Honda magic rear diff is quite incredible.

I'm only arguing that slippage isn't required in all systems for them to react.  SH-AWD (and whatever equivalent the Honda system is) reacts to throttle for instance.  In Gurgie's post he mentions the power distribution in the center display.  Our '14 MDX shows this also.  Under light throttle (ie no slippage) it distributes more torque/power to the rear wheels.  Although a bit of an archaic display in our MDX, you can see the distribution change in real time.