Topic: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars

[Neromanceres]

I skimmed the article because in my head a voice kept saying "these are all obsolete".

The reason is that from what is happening now to what will be available in 4 or 5 years when I start shopping almost eliminates these vehicles.

On Vancouver Island a Saskatchewan company is supplying "refueling stations" in enough areas that driving an electric car from one end of the island to the other is possible (north to south) as well as to the west coast.

This covers all but the remotest parts on the north west coast.

Oregon has the I5 highway covered every 25 miles.

One guy drove from Mexico to Vancouver in a Leaf using no gas.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=198034

or watch the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFu1_d5uqZ4

Give me a Tesla for $30000 and I'll be happy.

That would be nice.  But I feel there are still way too many comprimises in a BEV.

They need to find away to charge a 500km range battery under 30min without destroying the battery.  If you do the math it is not simple.

To go 500km range you would need a ~100KWh battery.  To do a 30 min charge that's 200KW of power.  Using a 500V DC fast charge system (SAE Level 3) you would need 400A of current.  That's an electrical cable nearly the size of my arm.  And the charging station would need an electrical substation next to it.

Also Nissan has some work to do with all the Leaf's that are experiencing large battery degridation in hot climates as they don't use a full battery thermal management system.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077107_more-nissan-leaf-battery-loss-nissan-doesnt-blink

I hate to say it.  But BEV's have more than 4 to 5 years to go before they are mainstream ready.  But I hope i'm wrong.  Because the electric experience in my Volt is Freaking Awesome!

[dirtyjeffer]

Once again a Hyundai fails to deliver what it promises on paper.  This is no surprise to me at all.  The driveability, refinement and real world fuel economy just aren't as good as Toyota hybrids.

to be fair, Toyota has a 10 year, million vehicle head start.

[rrocket]

to be fair, Toyota has a 10 year, million vehicle head start.

+1.  Toyota is the world leader in hybrids...by a large margin.  This is Hyundai's first try.

[tpl]

That would be nice.  But I feel there are still way too many comprimises in a BEV.

They need to find away to charge a 500km range battery under 30min without destroying the battery.  If you do the math it is not simple.

To go 500km range you would need a ~100KWh battery.  To do a 30 min charge that's 200KW of power.  Using a 500V DC fast charge system (SAE Level 3) you would need 400A of current.  That's an electrical cable nearly the size of my arm.  And the charging station would need an electrical substation next to it.

Also Nissan has some work to do with all the Leaf's that are experiencing large battery degridation in hot climates as they don't use a full battery thermal management system.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077107_more-nissan-leaf-battery-loss-nissan-doesnt-blink

I hate to say it.  But BEV's have more than 4 to 5 years to go before they are mainstream ready.  But I hope i'm wrong.  Because the electric experience in my Volt is Freaking Awesome!

IN practice you probably need 6 charging stations available as well. If you added that to ever gas station in Toronto you probably would have to build that new power station ( that the Libs killed) and fix up some of the other infrastructure.  Also I think that no matter how good the cable and connectors you probably would not let the public touch a cable and connector like that...even tho' it would be remotely controlled.   A 30 minute wait suggests that the station owner would have one of those mini burger bars/coffee shops.    But it could be done.

[rrocket]

  A 30 minute wait suggests that the station owner would have one of those mini burger bars/coffee shops.    But it could be done.

I went to this amazing car wash while in California.  There was a coffee bar in addition to a real alcoholic bar.  There were TVs and pool tables.  I could easily kill 1/2 in a place like that while I waited for my car to charge.  And for the ladies?  There was a manicure station.

[Ex-airbalancer]

That would be nice.  But I feel there are still way too many comprimises in a BEV.

They need to find away to charge a 500km range battery under 30min without destroying the battery.  If you do the math it is not simple.

To go 500km range you would need a ~100KWh battery.  To do a 30 min charge that's 200KW of power.  Using a 500V DC fast charge system (SAE Level 3) you would need 400A of current.  That's an electrical cable nearly the size of my arm.  And the charging station would need an electrical substation next to it.

Also Nissan has some work to do with all the Leaf's that are experiencing large battery degridation in hot climates as they don't use a full battery thermal management system.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077107_more-nissan-leaf-battery-loss-nissan-doesnt-blink

I hate to say it.  But BEV's have more than 4 to 5 years to go before they are mainstrKeam ready.  But I hope i'm wrong.  Because the electric experience in my Volt is Freaking Awesome!

IN practice you probably need 6 charging stations available as well. If you added that to ever gas station in Toronto you probably would have to build that new power station ( that the Libs killed) and fix up some of the other infrastructure.  Also I think that no matter how good the cable and connectors you probably would not let the public touch a cable and connector like that...even tho' it would be remotely controlled.   A 30 minute wait suggests that the station owner would have one of those mini burger bars/coffee shops.    But it could be done.

Ontario in the evening has to much power and it cost money to put the power on the NA grid
My friend looks after hydro electric plants on the Trent River and in the night they have stop producing electric since the are charge to put on the grid

[Ex-airbalancer]

Hope this works
Who killed the electric car http://video.citytv.com/video/detail/1703202645001.000000/who-killed-the-electric-carriage/

[tpl]

Ontario in the evening has to much power and it cost money to put the power on the NA grid
My friend looks after hydro electric plants on the Trent River and in the night they have stop producing electric since the are charge to put on the grid

Ok so what happens if many many people want one of these super quick charges at 3 pm on a hot afternoon?
The whole problem with electricity is storing it.   If it was as easy to store as gasoline there could and would be electric  cars everywhere.   The nearest to a "battery" that could store all that unneeded night time power and then use it during the day would be to pump  water uphill to a reservoir all night and then let it run down through a turbine all day..I believe that is actually done. But you do need a hgh place to pump the water to. There has been talk and research projects using super capacitors, hyper speed flywheels and so on but no-one has ever made one that can take up a few gigawatts and releases the power slowly.

[Ex-airbalancer]

Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

[Ace]

Great article Jonathan, as a proud ower of a TDI Wagon I must say your evaluation of the diesel Golf is right on. Its a shame your  test car didn't have a MT, its way more fun to drive a 3 pedal.
 Most people don't realize what these little VW's can do. Many friends have asked me have asked  how fast I can "cruise". With a smile I reply, " it's only revving 2000 rpm at 120kmh".

[rrocket]

Great article Jonathan, as a proud ower of a TDI Wagon I must say your evaluation of the diesel Golf is right on. Its a shame your  test car didn't have a MT, its way more fun to drive a 3 pedal.
 Most people don't realize what these little VW's can do. Many friends have asked me have asked  how fast I can "cruise". With a smile I reply, " it's only revving 2000 rpm at 120kmh".

That's the one thing about TDIs I personally dislike.  The ~4,000 RPm red line.  Always feels like you're short shifting...something I never got used to or liked.

[jyarkony]

Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

funny you should mention that, i just drove by a school today in Bruce/Grey County where one wing was covered in solar panels... that area is also windmill country — i love watching those things and find it shocking that locals put up big, hideous billboards complaining about them...

[Ace]

Great article Jonathan, as a proud ower of a TDI Wagon I must say your evaluation of the diesel Golf is right on. Its a shame your  test car didn't have a MT, its way more fun to drive a 3 pedal.
 Most people don't realize what these little VW's can do. Many friends have asked me have asked  how fast I can "cruise". With a smile I reply, " it's only revving 2000 rpm at 120kmh".

That's the one thing about TDIs I personally dislike.  The ~4,000 RPm red line.  Always feels like you're short shifting...something I never got used to or liked.

With 236 ftlbs of torque between 1800-3200 rpms you don't need to rev past 3500.  The mid-range grunt of the TDI is addictive.
 3200 RPM's happens quickly, even in Top Gear! 

[Ace]

Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

funny you should mention that, i just drove by a school today in Bruce/Grey County where one wing was covered in solar panels... that area is also windmill country — i love watching those things and find it shocking that locals put up big, hideous billboards complaining about them...

Alot of people in Bruce/Grey County area find  500 foot high wind tubines pretty hideous. Maybe McGinty should plant a few thousand of them all around the GTA where most of the generated power is being used.

[Ex-airbalancer]

There just hot air in the Gta , but no good for wind turbines

I bet the people with them on their land think they are great, I wonder how much they get for leasing the right to them?

[Prius]

The CX-5 wins for my money. A larger vehicle that nearly achieved the much maligned Transport Canada numbers and while the test vehicle was $30k, they start under $23k with a manual and would likely get better numbers yet in the FWD/manual configuration. And it's said to be relatively fun to drive, something many of these tested vehicles aren't know for being. Great test, good read. The Golf (or a Jetta TDI) also figures very highly into the equation of mpg/$spent.

Funny...I would have put the Mazda last. The whole Skyactive thing seems to make major compromises with performance in return for fuel economy. I don't think I've read a single review of the CX-5 that didn't comment on it being quite badly underpowered. I guess it depends on where you fall on the graph of economy vs performance trade-offs

I read that we get a watered down SkyActiv engine  because of our poor quality gasoline. Lower compression etc. I translate that as really saying that the high compression ratio really needs our premium gas but Mazda know they will lose sales if they specify that.

Actually it's because the higher compression version (14:1 I believe?) requires premium unleaded and Mazda things putting "premium required" on a $30,000 compact SUV will hurt sales (look at how many people are bashing the Volt or the smart fortwo because they recommend premium fuel) so Mazda detuned the engine just a bit so that it can run happily on regular unleaded.

[tpl]

Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

funny you should mention that, i just drove by a school today in Bruce/Grey County where one wing was covered in solar panels... that area is also windmill country — i love watching those things and find it shocking that locals put up big, hideous billboards complaining about them...

Alot of people in Bruce/Grey County area find  500 foot high wind tubines pretty hideous. Maybe McGinty should plant a few thousand of them all around the GTA where most of the generated power is being used.

FWIW I read in the Financial Post the other day the Germany is finding wind power insufficient and as it wishes to get rid of aging nuclear stations it is building new coal fired power plants.   Which is what we could do instead of ugly turbines. I would prefer to see new nuclear but because of lawyers etc. they take so long to build...

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

funny you should mention that, i just drove by a school today in Bruce/Grey County where one wing was covered in solar panels... that area is also windmill country — i love watching those things and find it shocking that locals put up big, hideous billboards complaining about them...

Alot of people in Bruce/Grey County area find  500 foot high wind tubines pretty hideous. Maybe McGinty should plant a few thousand of them all around the GTA where most of the generated power is being used.

FWIW I read in the Financial Post the other day the Germany is finding wind power insufficient and as it wishes to get rid of aging nuclear stations it is building new coal fired power plants.   Which is what we could do instead of ugly turbines. I would prefer to see new nuclear but because of lawyers etc. they take so long to build...

The Germans have roughly 25GW of photovoltaic solar generation on top of wind. They have enough solar to depress the spot price of electricity. That makes is difficult for gas plants to make money. Coal plants are so cheap to run they can still make money even at their pathetic 30% efficiency. Gas plants are 60%.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/18/us-energy-summit-power-gas-idUSBRE84H0C020120518

[Ex-airbalancer]

Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

funny you should mention that, i just drove by a school today in Bruce/Grey County where one wing was covered in solar panels... that area is also windmill country — i love watching those things and find it shocking that locals put up big, hideous billboards complaining about them...

Alot of people in Bruce/Grey County area find  500 foot high wind tubines pretty hideous. Maybe McGinty should plant a few thousand of them all around the GTA where most of the generated power is being used.

FWIW I read in the Financial Post the other day the Germany is finding wind power insufficient and as it wishes to get rid of aging nuclear stations it is building new coal fired power plants.   Which is what we could do instead of ugly turbines. I would prefer to see new nuclear but because of lawyers etc. they take so long to build...

The Germans have roughly 25GW of photovoltaic solar generation on top of wind. They have enough solar to depress the spot price of electricity. That makes is difficult for gas plants to make money. Coal plants are so cheap to run they can still make money even at their pathetic 30% efficiency. Gas plants are 60%.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/18/us-energy-summit-power-gas-idUSBRE84H0C020120518

Wish they could clean the up the emissions from coal to make it clean

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Wish they could clean the up the emissions from coal to make it clean

It can be done for most combustion byproducts. It's harder to deal with the CO2, because you have to find a place to store it.
A 1000MW plant consumes roughly 3M tonnes of coal a year and produces 9M tonnes of CO2 (depending on coal quality).
Hard to strip and pump that much CO2 underground economically.