Author Topic: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs  (Read 8995 times)

Offline AutoTrader.ca

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Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« on: September 18, 2017, 07:59:42 am »
Honda HR-V vs Mazda CX-3 vs Nissan Qashqai vs Subaru Crosstrek vs Toyota C-HR
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Offline Noto

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2017, 10:57:07 am »
Oh dear...Not surprised about 4 or 5, but very interesting showing about #1.

I get it - we almost always score the Nissans high, and for good reason: interiors are nice places to be, value seems to be there, and the handling is typically above-average.  That said, the fuel economy issue is, I think, a bit downplayed here, as is the power issue.  I maintain that the 2.5L should be fitted instead of the pokey 2.0L.

The scoring is tight everywhere, confirming, as always, that these machines differ more in a subjective way than objective.  They're all quite competent, offering slightly different feature sets, and will get the job done.

I find it odd, though, that:
Quote
The CX-3 is the most car-like here, and it’s also the smallest in terms of cargo volume and passenger volume by a considerable margin.
...for sure the passenger space is compromised, but your own info sheet shows the CX-3 having the second largest cargo volumes with rear seats both up and down.  It's essentially tied with the Cashcow for space - how then is it dinged so heavily for cargo volume in terms of scoring?

My thought is that categories should be separated.  I think you've gotten the weighting down quite well now, sort of:

Quote
Design and Ergonomics (15%), Seating and Cargo (20%), Features and Quality (20%), Ride Comfort and Handling (15%), Drivetrain Power and Refinement (10%), Fuel Economy (10%), Value and Appeal (10%).
...but why would design (subjective thoughts on looks) be tied together with ergonomics?  Would a car with fantastic ergonomics not then score low or mid-pack if you disagree with its styling (like was the case with the Crosstrek (negatiely) and Cashcow (positively))?

Similarly, if a car has poor passenger capacity, but comfortable seats and great cargo space, would it not then finish low or mid-pack?

I would do:
1. Design (5%)
2. Ergonomics (10%)
3. Seating (5%)
4. Cargo efficiency (10%)
5. Available Features (10%) (i.e. not just in the trim provided - cost can be considered in terms of value)
6. Ride Comfort (10%)
7. Handling (10%)
8. Steering Feel (5%)
9. Brake Feel (5%)
10. Power (10%)
11. Powertrain refinement (5%)
12. Fuel Economy (5%)
13. Value (10%)

...though no one category is necessarily worth more than 10%, failing to reflect that some things are more important than others to buyers, the categories themselves are often times related.  That is, driveability relates to at least 5 of the separated categories above, whereas styling is limited to just one at 5% instead of making up to 15% in the current grouping.

Excuse my unsolicited advice, but I always have found some difficulties as an examiner during testing in terms of assigning points because a vehicle would perform well in one respect (e.g. handling), but then poorly in terms of another (e.g. ride comfort).  Where it does well in one respect, but poorly in the other, it gets an "average" score that downplays the bad of one and the good of the other.  Take the HRV, which Jil notes:

Quote
Most had somewhat loud rides, but the HR-V crashed and banged the worst over bumps. And that’s a shame, because I really liked the light-but-not-too-light steering and the car’s agile feel. On a slithery stretch at speed, I found the Honda did a much better job of hugging tight curves than the Crosstrek I’d driven right before it. For steering response and handling, I thought only the CX-3 did a better job.
So, good steering, poor ride comfort, good handling, yet the HRV tied last for ride comfort and handling - it doesn't give any credit to the good steering or handling that Jil mentions.

...and with "only the CX-3 [doing] a better job", the HRV scored a 7.4 where the CX-3 got a 7.5.

I simply feel like scoring would be less "tight" if individual criteria were singled out rather than grouped.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 11:04:23 am by No-san »

Offline JacobBlack

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2017, 11:03:35 am »
Andy transposed the Cx3 and Crosstrek cargo numbers.
Hence your confusion.

Will respond to the rest shortly.

Ps: you made me win a bet. I've always said "the second we give a breakdown of our scores the only responses will be why our breakdown is stupid and nobody will talk about the cars..."
$50 for me! :)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 11:09:41 am by JacobBlack »

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2017, 11:21:39 am »
My thought is that categories should be separated.  I think you've gotten the weighting down quite well now, sort of:


Quote
Design and Ergonomics (15%), Seating and Cargo (20%), Features and Quality (20%), Ride Comfort and Handling (15%), Drivetrain Power and Refinement (10%), Fuel Economy (10%), Value and Appeal (10%).
...but why would design (subjective thoughts on looks) be tied together with ergonomics?  Would a car with fantastic ergonomics not then score low or mid-pack if you disagree with its styling (like was the case with the Crosstrek (negatiely) and Cashcow (positively))?

Similarly, if a car has poor passenger capacity, but comfortable seats and great cargo space, would it not then finish low or mid-pack?

I would do:
1. Design (5%)
2. Ergonomics (10%)
3. Seating (5%)
4. Cargo efficiency (10%)
5. Available Features (10%) (i.e. not just in the trim provided - cost can be considered in terms of value)
6. Ride Comfort (10%)
7. Handling (10%)
8. Steering Feel (5%)
9. Brake Feel (5%)
10. Power (10%)
11. Powertrain refinement (5%)
12. Fuel Economy (5%)
13. Value (10%)


Hang on a second, your breakdown is what we already do (more or less), and I'm surprised you've made this long, needless post, because you already know that! You've been to our comparos!!!  :rofl2:

As you well know, Noah - these are overall grouped areas to allow us to show a general theme of where a car is strong/weak. As you also know, the points you've said should be separated out ARE separated out on our scoring sheet, and then filtered into a general category. hence the breakdowns you see. And, as you also know, there are more than 13 lines on our scoring sheets.
As it says in the review, there are over 30. That's why we publish written segments not just the numbers, so you can get more detail if you want it. Scores = snapshot. Review = detail.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 11:27:30 am by JacobBlack »

Offline Noto

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 11:35:51 am »
Ps: you made me win a bet. I've always said "the second we give a breakdown of our scores the only responses will be why our breakdown is stupid and nobody will talk about the cars..."
$50 for me! :)


...and while yes, there are 30-odd lines on the spreadsheet, things like "steering and braking" are still combined :P

Hey, I just tried to simplify your score sheets by removing irrelevant things like ease of child seat installation ;D  I kid.

And to honour your request:

The Cashcow surprises me.  I didn't expect such things from the anemic powertrain, but I'm especially surprised to hear praise for it (even if it's in term of how smooth it is, if not underpowered and thirsty - a terrible combination).  Sounds like, not unlike the HRV, its performance will be overlooked by consumers  in favour of styling, options, and value.  Good on Nissan for building relevant products.

I'm not surprised that the all-new Crosstrek falls again into anonymity.  It's a great car as always, but not a runaway "must buy" like we fanbois wish it would be.  The CX-3 chugs on as a fantastic driver's car that could use some tweaking in terms of fuel economy, but the interior is tight and best left for empty-nesters who just want AWD.  That said, the outward visibility remains a large impediment to long-term appreciation, and I agree that the HMI requires too much effort if you haven't taken the time to set your radio pre-set channels.  The HRV remains a mini-CRV in terms of its fabulous build and design (in terms of utility, not looks), but the powertrain remains a massive weak spot - I'm surprised to hear about the crashy ride - I wonder if it's more related to sound deadening than actually being crashy?  I've never been near a CH-R, but I'm not surprised that it scored poorly as it's a more "stylish" Matrix/iM with odd option packages (a Toyota usual).

Good comparo.  Next time, invite me.  ;D

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 12:03:53 pm »
The XV (~64k YTD in the US) is outsold by the Soul (~80k), the HRV (~66k). I don't think Subaru is disappointed with that. The CX-3 is down around 10k YTD.

If I wanted a small AWD hatchbacky thing, I'd get another XV.   
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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 12:54:05 pm »
Ps: you made me win a bet. I've always said "the second we give a breakdown of our scores the only responses will be why our breakdown is stupid and nobody will talk about the cars..."
$50 for me! :)


...and while yes, there are 30-odd lines on the spreadsheet, things like "steering and braking" are still combined :P

Hey, I just tried to simplify your score sheets by removing irrelevant things like ease of child seat installation ;D  I kid.

And to honour your request:

The Cashcow surprises me.  I didn't expect such things from the anemic powertrain, but I'm especially surprised to hear praise for it (even if it's in term of how smooth it is, if not underpowered and thirsty - a terrible combination).  Sounds like, not unlike the HRV, its performance will be overlooked by consumers  in favour of styling, options, and value.  Good on Nissan for building relevant products.

I'm not surprised that the all-new Crosstrek falls again into anonymity.  It's a great car as always, but not a runaway "must buy" like we fanbois wish it would be.  The CX-3 chugs on as a fantastic driver's car that could use some tweaking in terms of fuel economy, but the interior is tight and best left for empty-nesters who just want AWD.  That said, the outward visibility remains a large impediment to long-term appreciation, and I agree that the HMI requires too much effort if you haven't taken the time to set your radio pre-set channels.  The HRV remains a mini-CRV in terms of its fabulous build and design (in terms of utility, not looks), but the powertrain remains a massive weak spot - I'm surprised to hear about the crashy ride - I wonder if it's more related to sound deadening than actually being crashy?  I've never been near a CH-R, but I'm not surprised that it scored poorly as it's a more "stylish" Matrix/iM with odd option packages (a Toyota usual).

Good comparo.  Next time, invite me.  ;D

To really spread out impressions, and have endless discussions over lunch breaks, invite me and No-san  ;D
Traffic engineer/project manager & part time auto journalist

Offline johngenx

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 01:01:44 pm »
I love the mazdas looks and interior, but it's just a wee bit too small inside. The Honda is probably the best compromise of space and build quality in my books. Ignoring the out or warranty experience, the Subaru takes the win for me. It's small, but still just big enough to carry real stuff, and the AWD is fantastic.

Honestly, this is a great segment that has exploded. There's truly something for everyone (that's not raising a hockey team) and the number of players shows that this is a segment to watch.

Nissan deserves water boarding to find out why they chose the worst name for a car, ever, for the North American market.

Offline SaskSpecV

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 01:25:08 pm »
Nissan deserves water boarding to find out why they chose the worst name for a car, ever, for the North American market.

Meh, it's a dumb name but it doesn't really bother me:
1. It's the same "Qashqai" vehicle name around the world, so the worldwide name highlights its worldwide roots.  Obvious exception being "Rogue Sport", or "Rogue Select", or "Rogue One" or WTH Nissan USA is calling it...
2.  Is it really any worse than "Toureag" or "Tiguan"?
3.  With the all-encompassing alphanumeric clusterfudge going on in the luxury market, I won't crap on any automaker for using an actual model name - even if it doesn't make any sense in this market

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 01:28:30 pm »
The Nissan Kumquat is second only to the VW Toe-rag in poorly chosen names. At least they gave it a name and not more alphabet soup.


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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 01:34:10 pm »
Noah's complaints notwithstanding, another excellent comparison by the autotrader (aka autos.ca) team.  Really appreciate the transparency in the review, and both the quantitative and qualitative aspects of it.

But while this subcompact CUV segment is red-hot (and I'm assuming highly profitable) for the MNFRs, I'm really underwhelmed by the current entries.  They all seem flawed in some critical way, at least when contrasted with their donor/comparable vehicles. 

Is the CX-3 superior to a Mazda3 hatch?
Crosstrek superior to an Impreza hatch?
HR-V superior to a Fit?

I guess for many ppl the marginally higher seating position, and/or the potential for AWD, is significant  enough to warrant the increased price, decreased fuel economy, and decreased driving characteristics.

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2017, 01:36:08 pm »
VW deserves a special place in hell for car names. Subaru does a pretty damned good job. Outback is brilliant, Forester is good, Impreza is weird, and Crosstrek is pretty good.  Triibeca is odd given its urban roots. It would be a good name for a urban hipster car.

Offline Noto

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2017, 01:46:26 pm »
Noah's complaints notwithstanding,
Suggestions.  Not complaints.  There's a difference.

...and the masses don't care if the Crosstrek is "better" than the Impreza hatch, for example - the Crosstrek looks like an SUV and therefore it meets their stylistic preferences.

...and for others, like the Mazda 3, the availability of AWD is, without a doubt, the majority of their consideration.

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2017, 01:47:49 pm »
The Nissan Kumquat is second only to the VW Toe-rag in poorly chosen names. At least they gave it a name and not more alphabet soup.



Yes...the f$%k was wrong with Nissan. Thats beyond an idiotic name. As for the comparison, great job ladies and gents, very well done. For me if I was shopping in this category, the Honda, Subaru and the Mazda would be top runners. The Toyota only comes in wrong wheel drive and I will never purchase a car that I cannot pronounce  ;D
Lighten up Francis.....

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 01:56:46 pm »
These are all subcompacts CUVs, I don't think any of them need an engine larger than 2L in displacement.  If you want bigger, then go for the compact CUV segment. 

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2017, 01:58:52 pm »
These are all subcompacts CUVs, I don't think any of them need an engine larger than 2L in displacement.  If you want bigger, then go for the compact CUV segment.

But since every manufacturer is on the turbo train....they should all have turbos

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2017, 02:05:26 pm »
What is the price gap between a Crosstrek and a similarly equipped Impreza?

I'm torn....I like the higher seating position of the Crosstrek, but I was impressed with the Impreza when I test drove one and wouldn't want to lose too much of that feel.

The most important question though: Are future head gasket issues still a forgone conclusion or has Subaru finally rectified this? It would be a deal-breaker for me.

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2017, 02:08:25 pm »
I didn't think the Crosstrek was a subcompact but hey the HR-V does beat it in size. Good to see that four of the five offerings have a manual transmission offering, although only Subaru offers AWD with it. I think Subarus will forever have the head gasket issue which totally turns me off from them.

If I were to go manual transmission, it'd be the HR-V. With an automatic, the C-HR would be my choice. Only one trim level that's fully loaded with everything I'd want. Heated seats, automatic climate control, Toyota Safety Sense P including auto high beam and dynamic cruise control, etc. I wouldn't need AWD on a small city car like this.

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2017, 02:08:34 pm »
These are all subcompacts CUVs, I don't think any of them need an engine larger than 2L in displacement.  If you want bigger, then go for the compact CUV segment.

But since every manufacturer is on the turbo train....they should all have turbos

Add the turbos.  Then people are going to say, holy :censor:, $40k OTD for an HRV with turbo.

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Re: Comparison Test: 2017 Subcompact SUVs
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2017, 02:22:03 pm »
These are all subcompacts CUVs, I don't think any of them need an engine larger than 2L in displacement.  If you want bigger, then go for the compact CUV segment.
I've posted about this before.  The Altima, which is a heavier car, with the 2.5L, uses LESS gas than the Cashcow does with the 2.0L.  So, does it need more power?  No, of course not.  There are less powerful/slower cars available.

...but where Nissan makes a better powertrain that would result in more power AND better fuel economy, the only reason to not put it in is higher net profits (the 2.0L presumably costs less to manufacture) or supply issues.

Considering the Cashcow is the priciest of the bunch, the car would be an even better "value" if it came with the more appropriately-sized motor (in my opinion ;D).