Author Topic: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars  (Read 19344 times)

Offline my2cents

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2012, 04:45:19 pm »
I skimmed the article because in my head a voice kept saying "these are all obsolete".

The reason is that from what is happening now to what will be available in 4 or 5 years when I start shopping almost eliminates these vehicles.

On Vancouver Island a Saskatchewan company is supplying "refueling stations" in enough areas that driving an electric car from one end of the island to the other is possible (north to south) as well as to the west coast.

This covers all but the remotest parts on the north west coast.

Oregon has the I5 highway covered every 25 miles.

One guy drove from Mexico to Vancouver in a Leaf using no gas.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=198034

or watch the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFu1_d5uqZ4

Give me a Tesla for $30000 and I'll be happy.

Offline AP

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2012, 04:51:05 pm »
To me as an engineer the Volt powertrain is stupid simple.  I actually think the Volt powertrain is far more simple than running gas engines with super complicated transmissions.

I am no engineer but I hope you're right.  In my experience, once electrical gremlins materialize the technicians are fond of reporting back with "cannot replicate, therefore cannot fix"...and that is with older technology that one would have thought is better understood than the Volt.

Offline Neromanceres

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2012, 05:14:08 pm »
I am no engineer but I hope you're right.  In my experience, once electrical gremlins materialize the technicians are fond of reporting back with "cannot replicate, therefore cannot fix"...and that is with older technology that one would have thought is better understood than the Volt.

I hope i'm right too  ;D.

Trouble shooting the wiring is usually the hardest part. The wiring for the powertrain is actually not that complicated. The complicated part is the variable frequency 3 phase AC to DC power converter in the Volt.  But hey GM has been running those for a decade in hybrid busses so I'm not too worried.  And it's covered by an 8 year 160K km warranty.

My biggest concern is the failing of the LCD screens or capacitive touch switchgear.

Offline tpl

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2012, 05:24:21 pm »
I would worry more about all the assorted sensors and fans and stuff that deals with battery temperature and the charging circuitry.
Some people think that if you squeeze the essence out of a fungus left over from beer-brewing you end up with a foodstuff that is precisely as appetizing as it sounds. Others are quite partial to Marmite.

Offline Neromanceres

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2012, 05:24:43 pm »
I skimmed the article because in my head a voice kept saying "these are all obsolete".

The reason is that from what is happening now to what will be available in 4 or 5 years when I start shopping almost eliminates these vehicles.

On Vancouver Island a Saskatchewan company is supplying "refueling stations" in enough areas that driving an electric car from one end of the island to the other is possible (north to south) as well as to the west coast.

This covers all but the remotest parts on the north west coast.

Oregon has the I5 highway covered every 25 miles.

One guy drove from Mexico to Vancouver in a Leaf using no gas.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=198034

or watch the video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFu1_d5uqZ4

Give me a Tesla for $30000 and I'll be happy.

That would be nice.  But I feel there are still way too many comprimises in a BEV.

They need to find away to charge a 500km range battery under 30min without destroying the battery.  If you do the math it is not simple.

To go 500km range you would need a ~100KWh battery.  To do a 30 min charge that's 200KW of power.  Using a 500V DC fast charge system (SAE Level 3) you would need 400A of current.  That's an electrical cable nearly the size of my arm.  And the charging station would need an electrical substation next to it.

Also Nissan has some work to do with all the Leaf's that are experiencing large battery degridation in hot climates as they don't use a full battery thermal management system.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077107_more-nissan-leaf-battery-loss-nissan-doesnt-blink

I hate to say it.  But BEV's have more than 4 to 5 years to go before they are mainstream ready.  But I hope i'm wrong.  Because the electric experience in my Volt is Freaking Awesome!

Offline dirtyjeffer

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #45 on: August 20, 2012, 06:42:41 pm »
Once again a Hyundai fails to deliver what it promises on paper.  This is no surprise to me at all.  The driveability, refinement and real world fuel economy just aren't as good as Toyota hybrids.
to be fair, Toyota has a 10 year, million vehicle head start.

Online rrocket

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2012, 06:49:29 pm »

to be fair, Toyota has a 10 year, million vehicle head start.

+1.  Toyota is the world leader in hybrids...by a large margin.  This is Hyundai's first try.
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline tpl

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2012, 06:51:01 pm »



That would be nice.  But I feel there are still way too many comprimises in a BEV.

They need to find away to charge a 500km range battery under 30min without destroying the battery.  If you do the math it is not simple.

To go 500km range you would need a ~100KWh battery.  To do a 30 min charge that's 200KW of power.  Using a 500V DC fast charge system (SAE Level 3) you would need 400A of current.  That's an electrical cable nearly the size of my arm.  And the charging station would need an electrical substation next to it.

Also Nissan has some work to do with all the Leaf's that are experiencing large battery degridation in hot climates as they don't use a full battery thermal management system.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077107_more-nissan-leaf-battery-loss-nissan-doesnt-blink

I hate to say it.  But BEV's have more than 4 to 5 years to go before they are mainstream ready.  But I hope i'm wrong.  Because the electric experience in my Volt is Freaking Awesome!
IN practice you probably need 6 charging stations available as well. If you added that to ever gas station in Toronto you probably would have to build that new power station ( that the Libs killed) and fix up some of the other infrastructure.  Also I think that no matter how good the cable and connectors you probably would not let the public touch a cable and connector like that...even tho' it would be remotely controlled.   A 30 minute wait suggests that the station owner would have one of those mini burger bars/coffee shops.    But it could be done.

Online rrocket

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2012, 07:03:25 pm »

  A 30 minute wait suggests that the station owner would have one of those mini burger bars/coffee shops.    But it could be done.

I went to this amazing car wash while in California.  There was a coffee bar in addition to a real alcoholic bar.  There were TVs and pool tables.  I could easily kill 1/2 in a place like that while I waited for my car to charge.  And for the ladies?  There was a manicure station.

Offline Airbalancer

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2012, 07:38:13 pm »



That would be nice.  But I feel there are still way too many comprimises in a BEV.

They need to find away to charge a 500km range battery under 30min without destroying the battery.  If you do the math it is not simple.

To go 500km range you would need a ~100KWh battery.  To do a 30 min charge that's 200KW of power.  Using a 500V DC fast charge system (SAE Level 3) you would need 400A of current.  That's an electrical cable nearly the size of my arm.  And the charging station would need an electrical substation next to it.

Also Nissan has some work to do with all the Leaf's that are experiencing large battery degridation in hot climates as they don't use a full battery thermal management system.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077107_more-nissan-leaf-battery-loss-nissan-doesnt-blink

I hate to say it.  But BEV's have more than 4 to 5 years to go before they are mainstrKeam ready.  But I hope i'm wrong.  Because the electric experience in my Volt is Freaking Awesome!
IN practice you probably need 6 charging stations available as well. If you added that to ever gas station in Toronto you probably would have to build that new power station ( that the Libs killed) and fix up some of the other infrastructure.  Also I think that no matter how good the cable and connectors you probably would not let the public touch a cable and connector like that...even tho' it would be remotely controlled.   A 30 minute wait suggests that the station owner would have one of those mini burger bars/coffee shops.    But it could be done.
Ontario in the evening has to much power and it cost money to put the power on the NA grid
My friend looks after hydro electric plants on the Trent River and in the night they have stop producing electric since the are charge to put on the grid

Offline Airbalancer

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2012, 07:39:31 pm »

Offline tpl

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2012, 08:51:47 pm »
Quote
Ontario in the evening has to much power and it cost money to put the power on the NA grid
My friend looks after hydro electric plants on the Trent River and in the night they have stop producing electric since the are charge to put on the grid
Ok so what happens if many many people want one of these super quick charges at 3 pm on a hot afternoon?
The whole problem with electricity is storing it.   If it was as easy to store as gasoline there could and would be electric  cars everywhere.   The nearest to a "battery" that could store all that unneeded night time power and then use it during the day would be to pump  water uphill to a reservoir all night and then let it run down through a turbine all day..I believe that is actually done. But you do need a hgh place to pump the water to. There has been talk and research projects using super capacitors, hyper speed flywheels and so on but no-one has ever made one that can take up a few gigawatts and releases the power slowly.

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2012, 09:43:33 pm »
Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

Offline Ace

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2012, 10:06:59 pm »
Great article Jonathan, as a proud ower of a TDI Wagon I must say your evaluation of the diesel Golf is right on. Its a shame your  test car didn't have a MT, its way more fun to drive a 3 pedal.
 Most people don't realize what these little VW's can do. Many friends have asked me have asked  how fast I can "cruise". With a smile I reply, " it's only revving 2000 rpm at 120kmh".

Online rrocket

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #54 on: August 20, 2012, 10:19:25 pm »
Great article Jonathan, as a proud ower of a TDI Wagon I must say your evaluation of the diesel Golf is right on. Its a shame your  test car didn't have a MT, its way more fun to drive a 3 pedal.
 Most people don't realize what these little VW's can do. Many friends have asked me have asked  how fast I can "cruise". With a smile I reply, " it's only revving 2000 rpm at 120kmh".

That's the one thing about TDIs I personally dislike.  The ~4,000 RPm red line.  Always feels like you're short shifting...something I never got used to or liked.

Offline jyarkony

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2012, 11:15:27 pm »
Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

funny you should mention that, i just drove by a school today in Bruce/Grey County where one wing was covered in solar panels... that area is also windmill country — i love watching those things and find it shocking that locals put up big, hideous billboards complaining about them...
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Offline Ace

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2012, 02:23:27 pm »
Great article Jonathan, as a proud ower of a TDI Wagon I must say your evaluation of the diesel Golf is right on. Its a shame your  test car didn't have a MT, its way more fun to drive a 3 pedal.
 Most people don't realize what these little VW's can do. Many friends have asked me have asked  how fast I can "cruise". With a smile I reply, " it's only revving 2000 rpm at 120kmh".

That's the one thing about TDIs I personally dislike.  The ~4,000 RPm red line.  Always feels like you're short shifting...something I never got used to or liked.
With 236 ftlbs of torque between 1800-3200 rpms you don't need to rev past 3500.  The mid-range grunt of the TDI is addictive.
 3200 RPM's happens quickly, even in Top Gear!  ;)

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2012, 04:45:22 pm »
Bruce should be on line soon, the there Darlington 2 should start in about 2 years
They are looking at putting solar panel on schools out here
If they every build a storage unit it would change the world

funny you should mention that, i just drove by a school today in Bruce/Grey County where one wing was covered in solar panels... that area is also windmill country — i love watching those things and find it shocking that locals put up big, hideous billboards complaining about them...
Alot of people in Bruce/Grey County area find  500 foot high wind tubines pretty hideous. Maybe McGinty should plant a few thousand of them all around the GTA where most of the generated power is being used.

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2012, 07:00:42 pm »
There just hot air in the Gta , but no good for wind turbines

I bet the people with them on their land think they are great, I wonder how much they get for leasing the right to them?

Offline Prius

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Re: Comparison Test: Best Fuel Efficient Cars
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2012, 12:19:37 am »
The CX-5 wins for my money. A larger vehicle that nearly achieved the much maligned Transport Canada numbers and while the test vehicle was $30k, they start under $23k with a manual and would likely get better numbers yet in the FWD/manual configuration. And it's said to be relatively fun to drive, something many of these tested vehicles aren't know for being. Great test, good read. The Golf (or a Jetta TDI) also figures very highly into the equation of mpg/$spent.

Funny...I would have put the Mazda last. The whole Skyactive thing seems to make major compromises with performance in return for fuel economy. I don't think I've read a single review of the CX-5 that didn't comment on it being quite badly underpowered. I guess it depends on where you fall on the graph of economy vs performance trade-offs
I read that we get a watered down SkyActiv engine  because of our poor quality gasoline. Lower compression etc. I translate that as really saying that the high compression ratio really needs our premium gas but Mazda know they will lose sales if they specify that.

Actually it's because the higher compression version (14:1 I believe?) requires premium unleaded and Mazda things putting "premium required" on a $30,000 compact SUV will hurt sales (look at how many people are bashing the Volt or the smart fortwo because they recommend premium fuel) so Mazda detuned the engine just a bit so that it can run happily on regular unleaded.
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