Topic: CD Article: 2006 Acura TSX

[Shnak]

Well I drove a BMW 323 a few years ago, and its engine is pretty much the same as we're talking about... And I've driven plenty of Honda/Acura 4-cylinder vehicles, although not the one in the TSX particularily.

There is no question in my mind that I'd want the I6... but then again, it depends what you want/need... TSX definitely has the economy/reliability edge (by a big margin) while the BMW I6 has the extra grunt, smoothness edge (also by a big margin IMO). So depends what you want.

[DriverJeff]

Well I drove a BMW 323 a few years ago, and its engine is pretty much the same as we're talking about... And I've driven plenty of Honda/Acura 4-cylinder vehicles, although not the one in the TSX particularily.

There is no question in my mind that I'd want the I6... but then again, it depends what you want/need... TSX definitely has the economy/reliability edge (by a big margin) while the BMW I6 has the extra grunt, smoothness edge (also by a big margin IMO). So depends what you want.

Fair enough.  I'm not about to tell you what YOU would want, just that the cries of the TSX's 2.4L being a torqueless wonder are very much unfounded.  Like the variation used in the Accord, that 2.4L is a nice engine -- and by Honda standards, is not a high-revving screamer the way so many of their others are. 

I just think it's very short-sighted for people to dismiss the TSX automatically because it has a 4 cyl. Engine.  While it is a 4-banger, it is among the very best out there for smoothness and provides a nice, linear power delivery all the while being extremely reliable too.

The TSX isn't the end all and be all for everyone (hey, I chose an A4 over one), but it is a very nice car that's exceptionally well equipped and represents a tremendous value. 

[MKII]

My understanding of what Shnak is stating that in theory, the 323i engine powerband is   in the 1500-4000 rpm range , the range of engine speeds in which you'd typically operate a car, will give you much more “oomph” than the TSX engine. Whereas the TSX engine powerband is set up to  take advantage of the power available at high engine speeds,  (which would generally be full throttle).

It would be interesting to see  a chart showing the peak power and torque for each engine just for comparison.

[robarakira]

OKAY lets get this straight

For the TSX's $700 greater MSRP than the 323i, you get:

31 extra HP
6 fewer ft-lbs
17" alloy wheels with better performing low profile tires
5km/h advantage top speed at 215km/h
a 0.2 second advantage to 100km/h at 7.8 seconds
Standard front heated seats, with real leather (not leatherette found in the 323i)
Dual zone climate control
cruise control
moonroof
a 6 disc CD player (with AUX input)
a 5L bigger fuel tank
remote window lowering
HID headlights with auto off


Now there are those purists who only want 4 (hubcapped) wheels, a (leatherette) seat, and RWD.  Enjoy your 323i.  

Biased I may be, but justifiably so.

[Shnak]

Well Acura has to compensate for their FWD drivetrain and 4-cylinder powertrain... if they offered the same features as the BMW, for the same price, but as a FWD and 4-cylinder, they would get killed in sales... so knowing that, they opted to feature-it-up instead of competing head-on like Lexus is doing...

Like it or not, but Acura is much closer to Honda than it is to BMW... so they simply can't compete head on... which is why they go with the tons-of-features route...

And IMO, none of those features would make me forget about the engine or drivetrain, or that it's an Accord in other markets... a BMW is a BMW... a TSX is a Honda, regardless of the features it has. It's still a Honda. And we're not close to the day where people cross-shop BMWs and Hondas systematically.

[curls]

My understanding of what Shnak is stating that in theory, the 323i engine powerband is   in the 1500-4000 rpm range , the range of engine speeds in which you'd typically operate a car, will give you much more “oomph” than the TSX engine. Whereas the TSX engine powerband is set up to  take advantage of the power available at high engine speeds,  (which would generally be full throttle).

It would be interesting to see  a chart showing the peak power and torque for each engine just for comparison.

Here's a stock 2006 TSX dyno plot (blue line).  Notice how the Tq curve is pretty much flat from 2.5k upwards? (looking at the red line for the "flatness" below 3k since the stock dyno didnt read that low).  That's why the engine is so smooth... it has, as per Acura's literature, "90% of peak torque available at 2000 rpm". 

Don't classify the K24 in the TSX as a typical gutless Honda 4-banger, as it clearly isn't.  Sure, the GS-R and ITR's of yesteryear had very high-revving engines with zero torque down low.  i-VTEC and bigger displacement in the K24 greatly overcome this.

Can someone else post a BMW 323i stock dyno, preferrably from a Dynojet dino?  Keep in mind, the above dyno reading was taken at 94*F, although SAE smoothing (normalization) was turned on so a Dynojet-to-Dynojet comparison should be fairly close.

[curls]

EDIT: You might have to scroll the pic (plot) to the right in order to see the Torque scale on the far right side.

[wing]

Before curls posted all that great data, I was just going to say, GO DRIVE ONE!

The TSX is different from other Honda revving engines and you really don't even hear it rev even if you were to rev it up.

Shnak come for a ride in my torqueless S2000, June 25th auto-x Scotiabank Place, see how much torque I don't have

[avtoller]

Now Wing, stop trying to confuse Shnak by exposing him to reality. He "KNOWS" all the facts. 

[mrthompson]

You meant to say "...see what I'm torquing about."  

[quadzilla]

When I drove the P5 with only 130hp/135tq it was good enough for every day normal driving.  Unless you live in a place that you can go WOT all the time, most cars built today are good enough for normal driving.  You guys are splitting hairs over stuff that doesn’t even matter to people that drive normal. 

Big deal if you have to shift at 4275 rpm in the TSX vs 3790 in the BMW.  Both engines spin up so fast it won’t even matter.

It all comes down to what you like and enjoy.  I’m glad there are choices.

When I drove the tq-less RX-8 I wanted one right away. 
James, Can I drive your car? Please 

[MKII]

Thanks curls, that explains to me why Honda engines have lower torque numbers. Too much torque with a flat torque curve makes it hard for the spinning wheels to find traction.
Correct me if I am wrong, for passing, or, "oomph" you need to keep engine RPM as close to the HP peak as possible, which  means keeping the needle at some rather high RPMs, and more frequent shifts to keep the RPMs up. Yes, No.

Quote from quadzilla "I’m glad there are choices."

Exactly!!

[G0dspd]

31 extra HP: I'm sure you can hear it at 7100 RPM
6 fewer ft-lbs
17" alloy wheels with better performing low profile tires:  16" alloys ... where can you get hubcaps?
5km/h advantage top speed at 215km/h
a 0.2 second advantage to 100km/h at 7.8 seconds
Standard front heated seats, with real leather (not leatherette found in the 323i): I don't want no stinkin' leather/ette 
Dual zone climate control
cruise control:  Usually for guest drivers 
moonroof: The one thing I would actually want
a 6 disc CD player (with AUX input): AUX = 20$
a 5L bigger fuel tank: Premium vs. Regular
remote window lowering:  They have it on 99 models ... but not on the 2007?  Still useless
HID headlights with auto off:  Alsi with automatic headlights ... Xenon?

So for 700$ more you get a whiny 31 HP that needs premium, leather seats, a few electronic toys and an additional inch on the wheels.  I'm still going with the Bimmer ... especially for the german ride.

I'm glad there are choices ... but the TSX wouldn't be mine! 

[footlong58]

31 extra HP: I'm sure you can hear it at 7100 RPM
6 fewer ft-lbs
17" alloy wheels with better performing low profile tires:  16" alloys ... where can you get hubcaps?
5km/h advantage top speed at 215km/h
a 0.2 second advantage to 100km/h at 7.8 seconds
Standard front heated seats, with real leather (not leatherette found in the 323i): I don't want no stinkin' leather/ette 
Dual zone climate control
cruise control:  Usually for guest drivers 
moonroof: The one thing I would actually want
a 6 disc CD player (with AUX input): AUX = 20$
a 5L bigger fuel tank: Premium vs. Regular
remote window lowering:  They have it on 99 models ... but not on the 2007?  Still useless
HID headlights with auto off:  Alsi with automatic headlights ... Xenon?

So for 700$ more you get a whiny 31 HP that needs premium, leather seats, a few electronic toys and an additional inch on the wheels.  I'm still going with the Bimmer ... especially for the german ride.

I'm glad there are choices ... but the TSX wouldn't be mine! 

Isn't the TSX tuned in Germany?

[robarakira]

We all know that if the TSX was RWD, many of your bimmer guys couldn't resist it!!!

(instead of nagging on why the TSX is a worse car because it's better equipped)

[Railton]

We all know that if the TSX was RWD, many of your bimmer guys couldn't resist it!!!

(instead of nagging on why the TSX is a worse car because it's better equipped)

[G0dspd]

We all know that if the TSX was RWD, many of your bimmer guys couldn't resist it!!!

(instead of nagging on why the TSX is a worse car because it's better equipped)

Yeessshhh!  No need to get crabby.     It's obvious your loyalties lie with Honda/Acura.

A RWD Honda/Acura ... now that's crazy talk!    (I  know I know ... the S2000  )

[a4_tom]

TSX is originally designed for European consumption. That's why Honda produces a widebody Accord for us. Its just Honda Canada/USA "beg" Honda Japan for an entry-level luxury sports sedan after the demise of the Integra sedan/2.5TL.

[Prius]

I could've sworn the 323i has alloys.

Yeah.. here's the thing

In Australia, the Accord (Euro) competes with the Camry and the US Accord competes with the Avalon.

In Japan, the current US Accord is the Inspire.. kinda weird since the last Inspire was the last generation TL lol.

[G0dspd]

I could've sworn the 323i has alloys.

They do ... I don't think you can even have hubcaps anymore.  If you go to BMW.ca and use the builder for a 323i (base model) you have the choice between a 16" Double Spoke Alloy Wheels - Style 15 and a 16" Star Spoke Alloy Wheels - Style 155 (but you have to get a 1500$ Sport Package thing).  I think they were focused on the BMW bashing and didn't check the facts.