Author Topic: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving  (Read 6743 times)

Offline EV Dan

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 13660
  • Carma: +480/-383
    • View Profile
  • Cars: '21 Venzaurus
.. and in the next couple of years the downsizing trend will be reversed in order for car makers to meet ever decreasing emission levels.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-paris-engines-exclusive-idUSKBN12E11K

Exclusive: Carmakers forced back to bigger engines in new emissions era

 By Laurence Frost and Agnieszka Flak | PARIS

Tougher European car emissions tests being introduced in the wake of the Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) scandal are about to bring surprising consequences: bigger engines.

Carmakers that have spent a decade shrinking engine capacities to meet emissions goals are now being forced into a costly U-turn, industry sources said, as more realistic on-the-road testing exposes deep flaws in their smallest motors.

Renault, General Motors and VW are preparing to enlarge or scrap some of their best-selling small car engines over the next three years, the people said. Other manufacturers are expected to follow, with both diesels and gasolines affected.

The reversal makes it even harder to meet carbon dioxide (CO2) targets and will challenge development budgets already stretched by a rush into electric cars and hybrids.

"The techniques we've used to reduce engine capacities will no longer allow us to meet emissions standards," said Alain Raposo, head of powertrain at the Renault-Nissan alliance.

"We're reaching the limits of downsizing," he said at the Paris auto show, which ends on Saturday. Renault, VW and GM's Opel all declined to comment on specific engine plans.
For years, carmakers kept pace with European Union CO2 goals by shrinking engine capacities, while adding turbo chargers to make up lost power. Three-cylinder motors below one liter have become common in cars up to VW Golf-sized compacts; some Fiat models run on twin-cylinders.

These mini-motors sailed through official lab tests conducted - until now - on rollers at unrealistically moderate temperatures and speeds. Carmakers, regulators and green groups knew that real-world CO2 and nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions were much higher, but the discrepancy remained unresolved.

All that is about to change. Starting next year, new models will be subjected to realistic on-the-road testing for NOx, with all cars required to comply by 2019. Fuel consumption and CO2 will follow two years later under a new global test standard.

Independent testing in the wake of VW's exposure last year as a U.S. diesel emissions cheat has shed more light on the scale of the problem facing automakers.

Carmakers' smallest European engines, when driven at higher loads than current tests allow, far exceed legal emissions levels. Heat from the souped-up turbos generates diesel NOx up to 15 times over the limit; gasoline equivalents lose fuel-efficiency and spew fine particles and carbon monoxide.

"They might be doing OK in the current European test cycle, but in the real world they are not performing," said Pavan Potluri, an analyst with influential forecaster IHS Automotive.

"So there's actually a bit of 'upsizing' going on, particularly in diesel."
IN RETREAT

Carmakers have kept understandably quiet about the scale of the problem or how they plan to address it. But industry sources shared details of a retreat already underway.

GM will not replace its current 1.2-litre diesel when the engines are updated on a new architecture arriving in 2019, people with knowledge of the matter said. The smallest engine in the range will be 25-30 percent bigger.

VW is replacing its 1.4 liter three-cylinder diesel with a four-cylinder 1.6 for cars like the Polo, they said, while Renault is planning a near-10 percent enlargement to its 1.6 liter R9M diesel, which had replaced a 1.9-litre model in 2011.

In real-driving conditions, the French carmaker's 0.9-litre gasoline H4Bt injects excess fuel to prevent overheating, resulting in high emissions of unburned hydrocarbons, fine particles and carbon monoxide.

Cleaning that up with exhaust technology would be too expensive, sources say, so the three-cylinder will be dropped for a larger successor developing more torque at lower regimes to stay cool.

The turnaround on size is a European phenomenon, coinciding with diesel's sharp decline in smaller cars. Larger engines prevalent in North America, China and emerging markets still have room to improve real emissions by shrinking.
INEVITABLE RECKONING

Fiat, Renault and Opel have the worst real NOx emissions among the newest "Euro 6" diesels, according to test data from several countries. They now "face the biggest burden" of compliance costs, brokerage Evercore ISI warned last month.

Such reckonings are the inevitable result of on-the-road testing, said Thomas Weber, head of research and development at Mercedes DAIGn_.DE, which has nothing below four cylinders.

"It becomes apparent that a small engine is not an advantage," Weber told Reuters. "That's why we didn't jump on the three-cylinder engine trend."

The tougher tests may kill diesel engines smaller than 1.5 liters and gasolines below about 1.2, analysts predict. That in turn increases the challenge of meeting CO2 goals, adding urgency to the scramble for electric cars and hybrids.

VW has been far more vocal about ambitious plans announced in June to sell 2-3 million electric cars annually by 2025 - about a quarter of its current vehicle production.

"You can't downsize beyond a certain point, so the focus is shifting to a combination of solutions," said Sudeep Kaippalli, a Frost & Sullivan analyst who predicts a hybrids surge.

In future, he said, "downsizing will mean you take a smaller engine and add an electric motor to it".

(Additional reporting by Gilles Guillaume, Edward Taylor and Paul Lienert; Editing by Pravin Char)
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach the man to fish and he wakes you up at 5 in the morning.

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 33318
  • Carma: +758/-938
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2009 Toyota Corolla, 2004 Toyota Highlander V-6 4WD, 2001 Subaru Forester, 1994 Mazda Miata
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2016, 11:42:05 am »
Interesting.  I know Toyota has been resisting the move to turbo engines - maybe they knew the limits of the turbo engines in terms of emission and real world numbers?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150727/OEM06/307279956/at-last-honda-and-toyota-prepare-for-turbo-charge

Offline Ex-airbalancer

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 40151
  • Carma: +729/-1584
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2011 Silverado 1500 LTZ ext ended cab , 2013 Lexus RX-350 F Sport
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2016, 11:49:12 am »
Interesting.  I know Toyota has been resisting the move to turbo engines - maybe they knew the limits of the turbo engines in terms of emission and real world numbers?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150727/OEM06/307279956/at-last-honda-and-toyota-prepare-for-turbo-charge
That probably true
I rather have a v6 instead a small 4 with a blower

Online tortoise

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 14968
  • Carma: +235/-453
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2016, 11:55:36 am »
So what that article is saying is that nothing will change in NA.

All the engines listed are small diesels, of which we get exactly none.



Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

Only the slow and dim know where they're going in life, and seldom is it worth the trip. - Tom Robbins.

Offline EV Dan

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 13660
  • Carma: +480/-383
    • View Profile
  • Cars: '21 Venzaurus
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2016, 12:11:15 pm »
Interesting.  I know Toyota has been resisting the move to turbo engines - maybe they knew the limits of the turbo engines in terms of emission and real world numbers?

http://www.autonews.com/article/20150727/OEM06/307279956/at-last-honda-and-toyota-prepare-for-turbo-charge

IIRC Toyota still won't use direct injection in their hybrids. Could it be because they see the Hybrid Synergy Drive as a technology not only designed to save fuel but be clean to the environment as well? DI could improve FE further by a bit but the downside of it is the DI engine's carbon emissions (soot). It gets to the point where Daimler will be installing particulate filters, originally developed for diesels, to all of their gasoline DI engines in near future.

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 33318
  • Carma: +758/-938
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2009 Toyota Corolla, 2004 Toyota Highlander V-6 4WD, 2001 Subaru Forester, 1994 Mazda Miata
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2016, 12:17:38 pm »
Toyota didn't install "conventional" DI as it's not the miracle device everyone likes to think.  While it gives slightly better economy there are long term reliability and driveability issues.  The D4S system uses dual injectors and gives the best of both worlds.  I expect to see variations on that system spread through Toyota engines as time goes on.

Toyota sells a lot of "old low tech" engines that are competitive with the "latest and greatest" from other makers.  How much of this technology is actually needed and how much is marketing differentiation?  Or crutches?

Offline Rupert

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 3346
  • Carma: +49/-160
  • member
    • View Profile
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2016, 12:26:49 pm »
It will be smaller lighter and less power cars. Engines do not need to be able to blast you to oblivion do they. Zero to 60 km/ in 10 sec is more than acceptable.

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 33318
  • Carma: +758/-938
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2009 Toyota Corolla, 2004 Toyota Highlander V-6 4WD, 2001 Subaru Forester, 1994 Mazda Miata
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2016, 12:35:43 pm »
It will be smaller lighter and less power cars.

We can hope that makers put engineering effort into adding lightness.  Mazda seems to have worked miracles with the new Miata, so I can't see why other makes can't as well.  The Germans are among the worst right now for giving us porky vehicles - especially their SUVs - it's almost ridiculous how heavy they are.  People freaked out that the new Miata has only 155hp - but they forgot to look at the power:weight ratio.  The new car is QUICK!

Offline JohnnyMac

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 9716
  • Carma: +110/-454
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2022 Honda CR-V Sport, 2022 Honda Civic Si, 2020 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid XLE (traded in), 2020 VW Jetta GLI (Traded in), 2010 Hyundai Santa Fe Limited (sold), 2016 VW Golf R (Sold)
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2016, 01:23:40 pm »
It will be smaller lighter and less power cars.

We can hope that makers put engineering effort into adding lightness.  Mazda seems to have worked miracles with the new Miata, so I can't see why other makes can't as well.  The Germans are among the worst right now for giving us porky vehicles - especially their SUVs - it's almost ridiculous how heavy they are.  People freaked out that the new Miata has only 155hp - but they forgot to look at the power:weight ratio.  The new car is QUICK!

Hey now, VW took weight out of their Golfs with this 7th generation and it should continue with the next generation.  Didn't Audi add a bunch of aluminum to their vehicles to help with weight?

I totally agree that vehicles need to become lighter but that is getting harder to do with all the safety features new vehicles need.  The answer is lighter but stronger materials, it's just too bad those materials are more expensive.

Offline 2JDM

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 7106
  • Carma: +119/-141
  • Gender: Male
  • member
    • View Profile
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2016, 01:51:15 pm »
NA 3.0L I6 FTW. 😀

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk


Offline Fobroader

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 35376
  • Carma: +1424/-2113
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2022 Honda Ridgeline, 2021 Lexus GX460, 2018 Kawasaki Versys X300
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2016, 02:12:28 pm »
It will be smaller lighter and less power cars. Engines do not need to be able to blast you to oblivion do they. Zero to 60 km/ in 10 sec is more than acceptable.
10 secs.....in 1986 maybe. A minivan runs in the 7 sec range now hahhaha

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Lighten up Francis.....

Offline EV-Light

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 8141
  • Carma: +125/-1490
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 02:14:12 pm »
Hybrid everything :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline mmret

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 14597
  • Carma: +240/-570
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2016, 02:43:35 pm »
I wonder how all these factors net out at 2.0L displacement which is a key marker. Many countries still have displacement based taxation so being able to meet a trifecta of tax, environmental, and performance metrics at 2.0 liters will be highly important.

Hybrid everything :)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Things might just go that way.
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel.
That makes me feel angry!

Present: 15.5 V60 T6 + Polestar, 17 MDX
Sometimes Borrow: 11 GLK350
Dark and Twisted Past: 13 TL AWD, 07 Z4 3.0si, 07 CLK550, 06 TSX, 07 Civic, 01 Grandma!

Offline bridgecity

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 6365
  • Carma: +126/-182
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2014 MDX; 2007 Tundra
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2016, 02:50:11 pm »
Hybrid everything :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, and skillful execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives.

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 33318
  • Carma: +758/-938
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2009 Toyota Corolla, 2004 Toyota Highlander V-6 4WD, 2001 Subaru Forester, 1994 Mazda Miata
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2016, 03:01:24 pm »
Things might just go that way.

Makes a ton of sense too.  Hybrids work and Toyota has shown they can last and be reliable.  And they're not just about fuel economy - they also work amazingly well in performance applications.

Offline EV Dan

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 13660
  • Carma: +480/-383
    • View Profile
  • Cars: '21 Venzaurus
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2016, 04:04:46 pm »
It will be smaller lighter and less power cars. Engines do not need to be able to blast you to oblivion do they. Zero to 60 km/ in 10 sec is more than acceptable.
10 secs.....in 1986 maybe. A minivan runs in the 7 sec range now hahhaha

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

But how many minivan shoppers even look up the 0-60 numbers? I think what Rupert is saying is if ALL mainstream cars simultaneously lose a second in acceleration with every model cycle in the name of FE, it will be acceptable to most drivers. Need to go faster than everybody else - pay premium for a hybrid option of the same car.

Offline tooscoops

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 9526
  • Carma: +325/-227
  • Gender: Male
  • "stealership" employee
    • View Profile
  • Cars: '75 AMC Pacer, '70 Morgan 4/4, '21 Pacifica Hybrid, '21 Wrangler Rubicon
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2016, 10:06:43 am »
i discuss this kind of thing with customers all the time... they'll talk about our cherokee's v6 and how much better the 2.0 turbos are on fuel and such...

i then tell them, the 2.0 turbos are great... but don't think that you are getting anything more than a smaller number on the tailgate of your vehicle. fuel economy is very similar, emissions are similar, longevity is (hopefully) similar... all you are doing is helping the manufacturer sell their wares in countries with heavy tariffs on engines over a certain displacement.

when people put rules in place that engines must be a certain size... they will find a way to make them that size. when they put rules in place to meet emission requirements... they will find a way to make it meet those.

their strategies to meet these goals is sometimes flawed, whether it comes at real world usage losses, or lies to make it look like they are compliant.
i used to be addicted to soap, but i'm clean now

Offline Rupert

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 3346
  • Carma: +49/-160
  • member
    • View Profile
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2016, 10:30:12 am »
   HP (as we know it) has little to do with speed. A car/van that will accelerate to 60 mph in 10 sec will easily be able to do 100 mph. Which is much more than ticket status. Speed freaks should be arguing for higher speed limits with smaller HP engines...not the other way around. It might be an argument that could be more ecco. overall. Hybrids could well be the best electrical option some folk would rarely buy gas...but then again those same people would not be buying much gas in a non-hybrid. But all would be buying less.
   HP freaking is only to boorishly beat the next guy whilst leaving two streaks of rubber on the highway.

Offline safristi

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 46229
  • Carma: +471/-416
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: since the beginning of Saf timeLOTUS ELAN,STANDARD... 10, MG midget, MGB (2),Mazda Millennia,Hyundai Veloster and 1997 Ford Ranger 2014 Subaru Forester XT
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2016, 01:00:07 pm »
Rupert   Thomas the Tank Engine is on another channel.............. :stick: :shuffle:


 It's English 70 years old and RED... ;D
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 01:02:02 pm by safristi »
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline Rupert

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 3346
  • Carma: +49/-160
  • member
    • View Profile
Re: Downsized and turbocharged engines are dirty in real world driving
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2016, 01:45:47 pm »
Well maybe I will see you there.