Topic: Comparison Test: German Compact Luxury Sedans

[whaddaiknow]

BTW - we ranked the ATS along with the other three for shites and giggles anyway.  It would have come 2nd

What was the difference between the two? Why the preference?

A4 was very, very close dynamically to the ATS (minus the straight line power) but offered more else where.  Nicer looking interior, easier to use controls, more adjust-ability in driver control (comfort, normal and dynamic could each be individually selected for suspension, transmission, throttle response and steering), better fuel economy, better exterior styling, a useable back seat, larger trunk and a slightly cheaper price.

So who do you think the ATS is going to steal market share from. Not Audi as it seems to be a better overall package. Not Mercedes since people don't buy Merc for its handling. That leaves BMW in the crosshairs. However, BMW changed its game and moved towards luxury than outright performance (at least in its more pedestrian trims). Did it hurt its sales? Anyone has the numbers? Is BMW shaking in its pants?

And the second question is whether the lower trim ATS (under $40k) is still competitive enough to put a serious dent in BMW's sales numbers. It is a very price sensitive area, and BMW lease rates are tough to beat.

Tough nut to crack for GM. They beat BMW at their game (performance). Is the rest of the package good enough to win over the wallets?

[greengs]

Mt compared the ATS 3.6, 335i and C350 recently.

They ranked them like this:
ATS
C350
335i

Seems like the new gen BMW is a step back from the previous gen in terms of dynamics which is a shame.  ATS is widely praised as the best handling sport sedan on the market today with god awful transmission and interfaces.  The one thing the 335i still has for it is its engine which is massively underrated making the car faster than competition.   The C class to me at least looks best on the outside, the A4 looks best inside. 

[SaskSpecV]

"The C 300 had to make do with halogen lights (as opposed to HIDs), flat white paint, no satellite radio, a seven-speed automatic and no reverse parking sensors or camera." - All other things being equal I'd take the cash instead of this list of features.

Agreed!  Especially as you can add further options onto the C300 - a lot of them for $7K! 

I did a double take when I read that the MB was the "value leader"...but hey, good on'em.  Aggressive pricing will (hopefully) help keep the other players in line - and with the rapid inflation of entry-lux vehicle prices (at least MSRP) in the last few years, they could use more competition on the pricing front.

[Northernridge]

Clever sneaking in that black ATS following the white FGCs...at the same time you re-enforce that Cadillac is on the outside looking in.

I think you called right with the A4 in first place, it's my favourite of the three. Meanwhile, I've never been impressed with the C Class and would have placed it last. It always strikes me as lacking its own identity in the MB lineup and surprisingly cheap feeling inside. Jumping from an E Class to a C Class I feel the price spread between the two should be much wider. I don't feel the same going from the A6 to the A4 and ditto for BMW.

I would approve of moving the C Class cars to the Smart Car section of the Mercedes show room (they do this you know) along with the Bs, GLKs and SLKs. 

[Soram6275]

Excellent review boys!  Many of us thoroughly enjoyed this one.  It's funny that ever since Charness got dropped things started getting so much better on your end.  Change in management?  New writing staff?  Whatever it is, these past months articles have been vastly superior to those of even last year.  I feel the writers are taking more chances and not trying to sit on the fence and be too accomodating like before.  I like that.  People want a real opinion, good or bad.  Respect.

Back to the cars.  I really like the ATS, but the glossy interior is not really my thing.  Who knows, perhaps I would warm up to it, but more likely I would go for the 2.0T version.  And so there's another good future comparison for you guys: 328, A4 2.0T, and ATS 2.0T.  What about that one?

I love Audi, but I would most likely go for the Merc.  I like the idea of the smooth 6 cyl. power and the softer suspension - I must be getting old.  And you can't argue with the price.  I believe the A4 is the best, but the Merc still has the prestige that the others don't and it's much cheaper.

[carcrazed]

I was disappointed to see only one new article on the main page this morning, but this great one will get me for the day. Thanks!

[Mike]

I was disappointed to see only one new article on the main page this morning, but this great one will get me for the day. Thanks!

Yeah, we kind of missed posting a story today.  But there should be four tomorrow, lol

[dirtyjeffer]

that A4 winning was surprising to me as well...not because i don't think it was worthy, but i just assumed the BMW would take the crown (yet again)...it isn't the "benchmark" for nothing.

that said, while the ATS isn't without fault, it looks to offer a pretty compelling argument to say "come see me" for those shopping in that segment...perhaps the ATS will become even more popular in 3 years, when they hit the used market at $25k (and its competitors are still asking for a $10k premium).

[Sir Osis of Liver]

GM has said that 70% of sales so far have been conquest sales, people from other brands. If so, that's a pretty huge number for anyone.

[Erik]

Mt compared the ATS 3.6, 335i and C350 recently.

They ranked them like this:
ATS
C350
335i

Seems like the new gen BMW is a step back from the previous gen in terms of dynamics which is a shame.  ATS is widely praised as the best handling sport sedan on the market today with god awful transmission and interfaces.  The one thing the 335i still has for it is its engine which is massively underrated making the car faster than competition.   The C class to me at least looks best on the outside, the A4 looks best inside.

The auto in the ATS is a killer, and apparently they have already improved the manual. Seems that someone in GM is listening.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

that A4 winning was surprising to me as well...not because i don't think it was worthy, but i just assumed the BMW would take the crown (yet again)...it isn't the "benchmark" for nothing.

that said, while the ATS isn't without fault, it looks to offer a pretty compelling argument to say "come see me" for those shopping in that segment...perhaps the ATS will become even more popular in 3 years, when they hit the used market at $25k (and its competitors are still asking for a $10k premium).

Looking at used wholesale values on VMR a used 2009 CTS ($19-21), about the same as a used 3 series ($17k-$25k) and not that far off the 5 series ($24k-$33k).

[Mike]

Mt compared the ATS 3.6, 335i and C350 recently.

They ranked them like this:
ATS
C350
335i

Seems like the new gen BMW is a step back from the previous gen in terms of dynamics which is a shame.  ATS is widely praised as the best handling sport sedan on the market today with god awful transmission and interfaces.  The one thing the 335i still has for it is its engine which is massively underrated making the car faster than competition.   The C class to me at least looks best on the outside, the A4 looks best inside.

The auto in the ATS is a killer, and apparently they have already improved the manual. Seems that someone in GM is listening.

Yeah, I have yet to drive a manual turbo ATS, but I hear from those who have that it is the manual in that car that is the let down.  The engine itself is good and I know the 3.6 and 6-speed auto are great.

[Erik]

Oddly, even though the Audi may be the best of the bunch, I think they are most likely to lose sales to Cadillac. For all of their great work over the last decade, I still think they lack the identity of a BMW or Merc. I think they may also snag the more performance oriented folks who used to buy a 3 series. BMW has been working hard at alienating the people who made them a success in the first place.
BMW drivers are getting a bad rap anyway, so they may snag people who just don't want to be seen in a BMW.

[Jaeger]

I am so looking forward to reading this review!  At least the GO train ride home this evening won't be boring.

[Erik]

Mt compared the ATS 3.6, 335i and C350 recently.

They ranked them like this:
ATS
C350
335i

Seems like the new gen BMW is a step back from the previous gen in terms of dynamics which is a shame.  ATS is widely praised as the best handling sport sedan on the market today with god awful transmission and interfaces.  The one thing the 335i still has for it is its engine which is massively underrated making the car faster than competition.   The C class to me at least looks best on the outside, the A4 looks best inside.

The auto in the ATS is a killer, and apparently they have already improved the manual. Seems that someone in GM is listening.

Yeah, I have yet to drive a manual turbo ATS, but I hear from those who have that it is the manual in that car that is the let down.  The engine itself is good and I know the 3.6 and 6-speed auto are great.

Don't know if you saw this, Mike.

http://wot.motortrend.com/?p=280959

[opg210]

Crap, what kind of forum is this? I thought we'd have headed off into a Force 10 debate by now.

I thought it was a great review and I like the thought that went into the conclusions. In a way, I can see what BMW has done as making perfect sense. They have a good lock on the market, everyone considers them the standard, and a lot of BMW drivers don't seem terribly interested in flat out performance. Or any kind of performance. So if you can draw them in to the showrooms with the badge, then show them a new model that is more comfortable than the old yet no doubt highly capable, then why not? There are other sportier models in the line up to point people to if they want. They could be just following the demographic trends too, as the boomers get older comfort gets more important. Overall it looks to me like a masterful job from a marketing perspective.

[Northernridge]

Oddly, even though the Audi may be the best of the bunch, I think they are most likely to lose sales to Cadillac. For all of their great work over the last decade, I still think they lack the identity of a BMW or Merc. I think they may also snag the more performance oriented folks who used to buy a 3 series. BMW has been working hard at alienating the people who made them a success in the first place.
BMW drivers are getting a bad rap anyway, so they may snag people who just don't want to be seen in a BMW.

I don't think so. Audi owners that I know are complete design snobs (I don't mean that in a bad way) and would not be caught dead driving a Cadillac. If budget driven they'd switch to VW.

[dirtyjeffer]

Looking at used wholesale values on VMR a used 2009 CTS ($19-21), about the same as a used 3 series ($17k-$25k) and not that far off the 5 series ($24k-$33k).

from checking online (autotrader), a lot of the 3 series' in the mid $20k range are base model 323 models...i don't really see a direct "competitor" as the 328 is really the closest, but still down on power compared to the Caddy...the 335i is closer in power, but is considerably more expensive...there isn't any C350s in my region, but flipping it to Provincial brings some up in the $35k range and the Audi's are in the same range.

my comment wasn't meant as a slight towards the ATS, it was more about people who may not be willing to forgive a few things about the ATS (or the brand image), but may give those things a pass for $10k in savings...much like when i bought my previous Taurus in 2002 (a 2000 model with only 30k on the odometer)...at $33k (new), i likely would have looked elsewhere...at $18k taxes in/out the door, i'll take it (which i did).

[greengs]

Here are the sales figures in this class for November 2012.  (USA. I don't have Canadian numbers)

BMW 3-Series: 10,776
Mercedes C-Class: 8585
Infiniti G-Series: 4838
Audi A4: 3343
Cadillac ATS: 2152
Lexus IS: 1988
Acura TL: 1918
Volvo S60: 1866
Lincoln MKZ: 1335
Buick Regal: 1101

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Looking at used wholesale values on VMR a used 2009 CTS ($19-21), about the same as a used 3 series ($17k-$25k) and not that far off the 5 series ($24k-$33k).

from checking online (autotrader), a lot of the 3 series' in the mid $20k range are base model 323 models...i don't really see a direct "competitor" as the 328 is really the closest, but still down on power compared to the Caddy...the 335i is closer in power, but is considerably more expensive...there isn't any C350s in my region, but flipping it to Provincial brings some up in the $35k range and the Audi's are in the same range.

my comment wasn't meant as a slight towards the ATS, it was more about people who may not be willing to forgive a few things about the ATS (or the brand image), but may give those things a pass for $10k in savings...much like when i bought my previous Taurus in 2002 (a 2000 model with only 30k on the odometer)...at $33k (new), i likely would have looked elsewhere...at $18k taxes in/out the door, i'll take it (which i did).

Yeah, I was just saying that although the Germans have a reputation as having high resale, it's not necessarily the case. Some of the worst residuals are from the flagship 7-series, A8 and S-class.