Topic: Is this a good EV policy?

[EV Dan]

It made me wonder if we as a society should grant EV incentives and HOV lane access to $90,000 SUVs with 22MPG mileage beyond the initial tiny 20km electric range. Something tells me there are ppl who only care about the HOV access and will never bother plugging it in, that is if they can afford a 90k car. IMO a regular Prius (non-plug) deserves the green vehicle plate more than these resource guzzlers. Rant over. Just wanted to hear your opinions on the matter.
http://www.plugincars.com/porsche-cayenne-s-e-hybrid
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2016_Porsche_Cayenne.shtml

[EV Dan]

At least both the Prius-plugin and the C-max are fairly fuel efficient even when never plugged. The X5 plugin and the above mentioned Porsche are almost the opposite. If one of these are driving in an HOV lane it is likely past its electric range and burns gas at twice the rate of a Honda Fit for example. This is my logic why they shouldn't have HOV lane access and therefore should never be green plated in the first place.

[rrocket]

In some places the regular Prius qualifies for HOV lanes

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

[me_2]

It made me wonder if we as a society should grant EV incentives and HOV lane access

In my view, the HOV access should remains what is it designed for. So, find one or 2 passagers before you drive in every commuting day.

Yesterday, I drove on the 440 East direction, this is not part of my usual daily ride. Between Pie IX and the 25N, the right shoulder is clearly marked "Bus Only" but few km further,  once the 440E becomes the 25N, it becomes "Bus, HOV & Electric green plate allows". On the first section (Bus only), I have seen at least 10 (none electric or HOV) cars passing everyone at high speed on the shoulder as if it is "business as usual"...  Once in the HOV section, I took it even if more busy but I felt guilty, I guess 

[tazcubed]

It made me wonder if we as a society should grant EV incentives and HOV lane access

In my view, the HOV access should remains what is it designed for. So, find one or 2 passagers before you drive in every commuting day.

I agree. Even though I have a green vehicle, there's absolutely no need for a hybrid/EV to travel in an HOV with only 1 passenger. It's a temporary measure anyway - if indeed we end up with more EVs in the future, then this incentive will also go to the wayside.

[EV Dan]

It made me wonder if we as a society should grant EV incentives and HOV lane access

In my view, the HOV access should remains what is it designed for. So, find one or 2 passagers before you drive in every commuting day.

I agree. Even though I have a green vehicle, there's absolutely no need for a hybrid/EV to travel in an HOV with only 1 passenger. It's a temporary measure anyway - if indeed we end up with more EVs in the future, then this incentive will also go to the wayside.

I can see why it is justifiable IMO to have one person in an EV using an HOV lane. If we look at it in terms of carbon footprint per person. A Tesla's efficiency is around 100mpg-e in gas equivalent while the above Porsche does 20-something mpg after its battery is discharged. In other words, in terms of carbon emissions per person, 1 guy driving a Tesla is equal to 4-5 ppl driving the e-Porsche. That's why I'd much sooner assign a green plate to a regular Prius than to a "somewhat green" gas guzzler 

[tazcubed]

It made me wonder if we as a society should grant EV incentives and HOV lane access

In my view, the HOV access should remains what is it designed for. So, find one or 2 passagers before you drive in every commuting day.

I agree. Even though I have a green vehicle, there's absolutely no need for a hybrid/EV to travel in an HOV with only 1 passenger. It's a temporary measure anyway - if indeed we end up with more EVs in the future, then this incentive will also go to the wayside.

I can see why it is justifiable IMO to have one person in an EV using an HOV lane. If we look at it in terms of carbon footprint per person. A Tesla's efficiency is around 100mpg-e in gas equivalent while the above Porsche does 20-something mpg after its battery is discharged. In other words, in terms of carbon emissions per person, 1 guy driving a Tesla is equal to 4-5 ppl driving the e-Porsche. That's why I'd much sooner assign a green plate to a regular Prius than to a "somewhat green" gas guzzler 

I understand what you're getting at but I'm on the fence on this one. If we're looking at incentives, I agree it's needed to drive people to buy EVs. In the contrary, since EVs and hybrids (most at least) have a smaller carbon footprint, it should almost be reversed - let the EVs and hybrids sit in the depths of traffic as that should help to reduce carbon emissions in the near term.

Cases like the Porsche, well...make a disincentive to buying even the hybrids - exempt them from being able to get the green plates as well. Gas guzzlers will eventually have to go.   

[EV Dan]

I see your point. If for an occasional Queen visit you wanted to improve the air quality then yes, let the Prii, Yarii and Fits sit in traffic and let the V8 'Burbans zoom by in the HOVL.
But the original point of allowing EVs in the lane, the way I figure, was to make the "single" V8 drivers wonder why a Leaf flies by while he's stuck in traffic and consequently question their car buying preferences. These pseudo-green SUVs getting real green plates are nothing more than a loophole that needs to close.

[safristi]

How do you close a GREEN LOOP HOLE....................lots of Borage .

[Ex-airbalancer]

Do people actually use these lanes? Wouldn't everyone be stuck doing the same speed as some slowpoke "being green" at the front of the line? If the purpose is to supposedly speed up traffic, why not just enforce the left lane rules? I just don't really get the big deal I see online about HOV lanes. Looks to me like everyone would just immediately migrate to them and then there'd be no point to them.

In the GTA it can save you time in the Rush hours

[tazcubed]

Do people actually use these lanes? Wouldn't everyone be stuck doing the same speed as some slowpoke "being green" at the front of the line? If the purpose is to supposedly speed up traffic, why not just enforce the left lane rules? I just don't really get the big deal I see online about HOV lanes. Looks to me like everyone would just immediately migrate to them and then there'd be no point to them.

For the most part, yes. I've seen Prius going along at 120 through the QEW. The slower cars are usually minivans but there's also idiots who like to use the HOV lanes out of frustration, cutting in and out depending upon which lane has the best flow going. In doing so, these driver's are the ones who slow down ALL traffic. Once sufficient green cars make the quota of vehicles on the road, the incentives will return to HOV vehicles only. For now, states are looking for ways to reduce their carbon footprint - this is an easy way to introduce change.

Really, it's more about getting the most people down the road efficiently. If people continue to drive themselves, the congestion will continue (if not get worse). I cannot complain about the traffic - it's a reality. The notion of Uber was correct - how to incentivise carpooling by drivers and carpoolers together, but now it's really a taxi company looking for profitability.

[blur911]

At least both the Prius-plugin and the C-max are fairly fuel efficient even when never plugged. The X5 plugin and the above mentioned Porsche are almost the opposite. If one of these are driving in an HOV lane it is likely past its electric range and burns gas at twice the rate of a Honda Fit for example. This is my logic why they shouldn't have HOV lane access and therefore should never be green plated in the first place.

5/5/5.0 Le/100 km in electric mode.
At full charge, the vehicle will run in pure electric mode for up to 22 km.

So, why are you assuming worst case scenario for the Cayenne Hybrid?
Just because Cayenne drivers are a$$holes?


Hmmm, 22km range would get me almost all the way to work, but Ontario Hydro prices make me not care.

[EV Dan]

I assumed the average one way commute to be 50km around GTA. Maybe there is a more accurate statistical number but I shouldn't be off by much. In this case only 20% of the daily driving is done in EV mode. The rest of the distance this Cayenne will burn 11L/100km, which is far more then a regular, non-plug Prius, and still more than an average 4 cyl mid-size car. I see no reason such SUVs should have a one person HOV lane access. (nor should they use Home Depot and other stores' "hybrid" parking spots, but that is up to the companies)

[blur911]

I assumed the average one way commute to be 50km around GTA. Maybe there is a more accurate statistical number but I shouldn't be off by much.

The median commuting distance for workers living in the Toronto CMA who worked at a
usual place of work was 9.4 kilometres in 2006, compared to 9.2 kilometres in 2001.
Statistics Canada – Catalogue no. 97-561

You might be a bit off.   

I do agree that the vehicles you see in the HOV lanes probably have significantly longer commutes.  But, it's also hard to tell though what proportion are  driving by in the HOV lane in full electric mode.

[EV Dan]

I assumed the average one way commute to be 50km around GTA. Maybe there is a more accurate statistical number but I shouldn't be off by much.

The median commuting distance for workers living in the Toronto CMA who worked at a
usual place of work was 9.4 kilometres in 2006, compared to 9.2 kilometres in 2001.
Statistics Canada – Catalogue no. 97-561

You might be a bit off.   

I do agree that the vehicles you see in the HOV lanes probably have significantly longer commutes.  But, it's also hard to tell though what proportion are  driving by in the HOV lane in full electric mode.

Toronto CMA stretches from Eto to Scarboro, according to a quick google search. My assumption was based on large number of ppl driving to work from Hamilton and Burlington to TO because of real estate pricing.

[bye]

22km range would get me almost all the way to work, but Ontario Hydro prices make me not care.

Driving an EV charged on overnight electricity is the equivalent of paying $0.20/L for gas.
Meaning, at least 4x savings compared to the lowest gas prices recently.

Both EV's we drive get the equivalent efficiency and cost of running a 100+ mpg gas car in terms of running costs.
The Tesla is actually less because most of our big trips are done on free charging, either Tesla Supercharger or Hotel provided destination charging.

[blur911]

22km range would get me almost all the way to work, but Ontario Hydro prices make me not care.

Driving an EV charged on overnight electricity is the equivalent of paying $0.20/L for gas.
Meaning, at least 4x savings compared to the lowest gas prices recently.

For some reason you pay far less for electricity than the rest of us.  Could affect your calculations.

[Ex-airbalancer]

22km range would get me almost all the way to work, but Ontario Hydro prices make me not care.

Driving an EV charged on overnight electricity is the equivalent of paying $0.20/L for gas.
Meaning, at least 4x savings compared to the lowest gas prices recently.

For some reason you pay far less for electricity than the rest of us.  Could affect your calculations.

He  pays the same rate but probably does not included delievery charge (38%) and taxes ( 13%) in Ontario
I wonder what are insurance rates are for a Tesla ?

[tazcubed]

I assumed the average one way commute to be 50km around GTA. Maybe there is a more accurate statistical number but I shouldn't be off by much.

The median commuting distance for workers living in the Toronto CMA who worked at a
usual place of work was 9.4 kilometres in 2006, compared to 9.2 kilometres in 2001.
Statistics Canada – Catalogue no. 97-561

You might be a bit off.   


I do agree that the vehicles you see in the HOV lanes probably have significantly longer commutes.  But, it's also hard to tell though what proportion are  driving by in the HOV lane in full electric mode.

Just out of curiosity does the Cayenne actually maintain full EV mode or does it switch over above a certain speed?

[blur911]

I assumed the average one way commute to be 50km around GTA. Maybe there is a more accurate statistical number but I shouldn't be off by much.

The median commuting distance for workers living in the Toronto CMA who worked at a
usual place of work was 9.4 kilometres in 2006, compared to 9.2 kilometres in 2001.
Statistics Canada – Catalogue no. 97-561

You might be a bit off.   


I do agree that the vehicles you see in the HOV lanes probably have significantly longer commutes.  But, it's also hard to tell though what proportion are  driving by in the HOV lane in full electric mode.

Just out of curiosity does the Cayenne actually maintain full EV mode or does it switch over above a certain speed?

 

In “E-Power” mode, though, the Cayenne moves solely on the single electric motor at speeds up to 78 mph.