Topic: Test Drive: 2017 Subaru WRX STI

[aquadorhj]

Holy crap.  Shortblock is 4k?  Dont they sell chevy v8 for little more?

[Fobroader]

Holy crap.  Shortblock is 4k?  Dont they sell chevy v8 for little more?

You are looking for about $5k for an LS that can easily take 10 pounds of boost and reach about 6-700hp without breaking a sweat.

[JG20]

Holy crap.  Shortblock is 4k?  Dont they sell chevy v8 for little more?

You are looking for about $5k for an LS that can easily take 10 pounds of boost and reach about 6-700hp without breaking a sweat.

Anybody ever shoehorn an LS into an STI 

[Fobroader]

Holy crap.  Shortblock is 4k?  Dont they sell chevy v8 for little more?

You are looking for about $5k for an LS that can easily take 10 pounds of boost and reach about 6-700hp without breaking a sweat.

Anybody ever shoehorn an LS into an STI 

Uhhh...yeah... 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2375928

http://www.v8wrx.com/products.html

[dirtyjeffer]

More real honest to god mechanicals than anyone else, and I'm a mechanical engineer.

so you have your P.Eng, do you (i've asked you before, but you declined to answer)?

[mixmanmash]

^ Thanks for that info  [emoji106]

And yeah, I was talking about the early GT-Rs having launch control but voiding warranty if you use it.  Good to hear that's been remedied.

BTW, here's one example of built EJ25 shortblocks balanced and blueprinted, priced in CAD$:
https://tougetuning.com/product-category/subaru/impreza/wrx-sti/2015-2016-wrx-sti/engine-components-2015-2016-wrx-sti/short-blocks-engine-components-2015-2016-wrx-sti/

Like I said though, lots of examples of STIs pushing 400+ WHP and WTQ on the stock shortblock with bolt-ons and proper tuning...

Those are also only short blocks.....you have to include cylinder head work, cams, gaskets, arp hardware.....blah blah blah, trust me, it only looks cheap on paper.

Wow.  Must be STi tax, because I paid about $3500 for a built VG30DETT block (V6):

CP Pistons
Carrillo Rods
Block Acid dipped and redecked
ARP Rod and Main studs
Block water passage bored out for more water to back cylinders
Block Bored and Honed using a Torque Plate
New Brass Freeze Plugs installed
All oil galleys cleaned and new oil plugs installed
Crank center weight tig welded into place
Crank balanced
New Moly Coated Race Spec Main bearings installed
New Moly Coated Race Spec Rod bearings installed
Block prepped and assembled
Ceramic/Moly coating to piston tops and skirts
Crankshaft cryotreated

[rrocket]

Holy crap.  Shortblock is 4k?  Dont they sell chevy v8 for little more?

You are looking for about $5k for an LS that can easily take 10 pounds of boost and reach about 6-700hp without breaking a sweat.

It's more than that. Much more. I looked into a built LS for a C5.

Or are you talking about stripping the block you already have and building it up? Even doing that it's a fair amount...especially if any block machine work is required. Plus hot tanking and all the other engine building BS. I hear about how cheap LS swaps are...And after pricing one out....it's the rarer builds that are cheap IMO.

Glad I never even had to think about building a Supra engine! Boost and go until about 1000hp!

[mixmanmash]

Holy crap.  Shortblock is 4k?  Dont they sell chevy v8 for little more?

You are looking for about $5k for an LS that can easily take 10 pounds of boost and reach about 6-700hp without breaking a sweat.

It's more than that. Much more. I looked into a built LS for a C5.

Or are you talking about stripping the block you already have and building it up? Even doing that it's a fair amount...especially if any block machine work is required. Plus hot tanking and all the other engine building BS. I hear about how cheap LS swaps are...And after pricing one out....it's the rarer builds that are cheap IMO.

Glad I never even had to think about building a Supra engine! Boost and go until about 1000hp!

Back in those days, it seems the Japanese "overbuilt" things.  The stock bottom end on the 2JZ is a great example.  Same on the VG30DETT (700hp/700lbft no problem on stock pistons and rods).  Seems as if engineering got better that they don't need as much factors of safety.  You can't push much more than 400lbft of torque on a stock VQ35 bottom end, as an example.  The GT-R is about 600-650lbft.

[JG20]

Yes, are there any current manufacturers left that "overbuild" parts?

$3500 for your built block is cheap imo. When I was sourcing out built blocks for my MSP (just in case), it was at least that much..

[dirtyjeffer]

Back in those days, it seems the Japanese "overbuilt" things.  The stock bottom end on the 2JZ is a great example.  Same on the VG30DETT (700hp/700lbft no problem on stock pistons and rods).  Seems as if engineering got better that they don't need as much factors of safety.  You can't push much more than 400lbft of torque on a stock VQ35 bottom end, as an example.  The GT-R is about 600-650lbft.

it's quite likely they stopped doing that to save money, which is likely fine...i would imagine the number of people that actually did that stuff was pretty small, so that money could be put to better use in improved features, improved interiors, etc or lower prices (although lower pricing is usually not the goal)...basically, the things that most regular buyers care about.

[mixmanmash]

Back in those days, it seems the Japanese "overbuilt" things.  The stock bottom end on the 2JZ is a great example.  Same on the VG30DETT (700hp/700lbft no problem on stock pistons and rods).  Seems as if engineering got better that they don't need as much factors of safety.  You can't push much more than 400lbft of torque on a stock VQ35 bottom end, as an example.  The GT-R is about 600-650lbft.

it's quite likely they stopped doing that to save money, which is likely fine...i would imagine the number of people that actually did that stuff was pretty small, so that money could be put to better use in improved features, improved interiors, etc or lower prices (although lower pricing is usually not the goal)...basically, the things that most regular buyers care about.

True.  But I have a feeling the modeling and engineering got better, which lead to cost savings.

[dirtyjeffer]

True.  But I have a feeling the modeling and engineering got better, which lead to cost savings.

agreed...but i don't think the prices actually come down...i think the "savings" prevent (or minimize) price creep as well as allow more content to be included for a same or similar money...a mid-trim Corolla 15 years ago was likely $20k...a mid trim Corolla today is still likely about $20k, but now comes with better safety features, heated seats, etc...i realize that $20k in 2001 dollars is more than $20k in today's dollar, but i am talking about the actual sticker price itself, not factoring in inflation...i don't think the goal of any manufacturer is to get that price down to $10k, they still want $20k from you so they'll just keep finding ways to provide good value.

[johngenx]

In real dollar terms, many cars today are cheaper than they were 10, 15 or even 20 years ago.  The compact car market has experienced some of the largest changes for consumers.  Cars are far better - offering better fuel economy along with a lot more safety and comfort features.  What your $20K buys you today is amazing compared to your $20K in 2001.

The same can be said for segments going up as well.  The 2004 STi was priced not a lot less than today's STi, and while we are seeing many similar components still in use, the overall 2017 model is a huge improvement over the 2004.

The "old fashioned over-engineering" discussed above is limited to a few select models of cars.  But, is there a lack of robust engines on the market compared to decades previous?  I'm not so sure.   I'd love to tear into the 2GR-FSE 3.5L engine - I bet it's pretty stout.

[quadzilla]

Price of a 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Limited sedan

Base price   $36,495 GT Sedan / $40,295 GT LTD
Engine   2.5-litre 4 cylinder boxer,turbocharged, DOHC, 16-valves
Horsepower   250 hp @ 6,000 rpm
Torque   250 lb.-ft. @ 3,600 rpm
Transmission   5-speed manual (5-speed automatic with SportShift)
Fuel consumption   City: 12.4 L/100 km (23 mpg Imperial) / Hwy 8.6 L/100 km (33 mpg)

[dirtyjeffer]

In real dollar terms, many cars today are cheaper than they were 10, 15 or even 20 years ago.  The compact car market has experienced some of the largest changes for consumers.  Cars are far better - offering better fuel economy along with a lot more safety and comfort features.  What your $20K buys you today is amazing compared to your $20K in 2001.

yea...people sometimes complain about the prices of some of the cars/trims today, but in reality, they are pretty good when you compare them to 20-30 years ago...so much better and so much more car for your money.

[Robin2]

04-05 CDN Sti - $46995 + freight / pdi / taxes....
06-07 CDN Sti - $49995 + freight / pdi / taxes....

today's Sti starts at around $38k + freight / pdi / taxes....

I still remember my friend got a 2002 wrx and by the time out the door it ws $42k.   My 2011wrx was under $36k out the door.

Subaru pricing went down with the dollar with on par....  but it took them a long time.  So many Canadians were buying subarus state side as the savings was huge.  Forester XT and Sti - the difference was aprox $10k

New wrx at under 30k plus the usual fees.... it's good thing.  hard to beat especially when you look at a civic or corolla that can easily be mid-20's and all you got was "fluff" items added and it went from $16-18k to 22-26k car plus freight/taxes

[mixmanmash]

In real dollar terms, many cars today are cheaper than they were 10, 15 or even 20 years ago.  The compact car market has experienced some of the largest changes for consumers.  Cars are far better - offering better fuel economy along with a lot more safety and comfort features.  What your $20K buys you today is amazing compared to your $20K in 2001.

The same can be said for segments going up as well.  The 2004 STi was priced not a lot less than today's STi, and while we are seeing many similar components still in use, the overall 2017 model is a huge improvement over the 2004.

The "old fashioned over-engineering" discussed above is limited to a few select models of cars.  But, is there a lack of robust engines on the market compared to decades previous?  I'm not so sure.   I'd love to tear into the 2GR-FSE 3.5L engine - I bet it's pretty stout.

Stout in factory form, sure.  Start modding and I bet the limits arrive sooner than on say something like a 2JZ.

[johngenx]

Stout in factory form, sure.  Start modding and I bet the limits arrive sooner than on say something like a 2JZ.

I bet you're right - but how many engines are as stout as the 2JZ?  Not many - and especially not in cars costing what the Supra did.  (Yeah, the Supra wasn't cheap, but it was possible to spend many multiples of the price elsewhere...)

[mixmanmash]

Stout in factory form, sure.  Start modding and I bet the limits arrive sooner than on say something like a 2JZ.

I bet you're right - but how many engines are as stout as the 2JZ?  Not many - and especially not in cars costing what the Supra did.  (Yeah, the Supra wasn't cheap, but it was possible to spend many multiples of the price elsewhere...)

True, not very many.  The Nissan VG30DETT were pretty stout engines, but again, they were in fairly pricey vehicles for the time.  No problem doing 700hp with stock internals.

[DriverJeff]

Re the STI...

Good:

Fast - really fast.
AWD is amazing.
Chassis finally allows engine to work.
Trans and shifter better than ever.
Tuning options galore.

Bad:

Subaru dealers - service often sucks, parts are $$$, service costs are $$$, and they add on thousands in "fees" when buying.
Potential long term grenade.
It's in the "hot hatch" segment and has no hatch.
Heat score.

Ding! Ding! Ding!  You've hit the nail squarely on the head. 

I'm awaiting my '17 STI to show up in my driveway within the next week after handing back the keys on the '15 WRX.  I was ready to leave Subaru for good (and most likely return to BMW) after the WRX.  While much more efficient, that new engine is finicky to drive thanks to the fueling / throttle / clutch set up on it (hanging revs drove me nuts).  The dealership experience was shameful, so this time I've switched dealerships (though so far, I'm not getting a lot of warm and fuzzies yet).  Ultimately, for the amount of performance I'm getting for the little amount I'm paying, it was too good to pass up.  Plus, stuff that's old school and quirky and inefficient (turbo lag, good ol' fashioned hydraulic steering, etc.) are actually really appealing amidst all these over-computerized machines I drive all the time. 

I'll only have it for a short period of time and it'll be covered bumper-to-bumper for its entire stay with me, and that's how I'll be able to rest at night with this car.