Topic: Comparison Test: AWD vs FWD Family Sedans on Ice

[Ace]

Evidently Ace didn't read the report.  There was a commentary about handling under braking and no-power where the AWD provided no assistance and the Subaru was superior.  It noted the better chassis balance and weight distribution.

Actually I did read the REPORT and by the way have owned 2 Subaru Legacy wagons. IMO the full time AWD does affect steering and braking to some degree under engine braking. I'll bet the LEGACY would easily out-perform the very well balanced BRZ on the white stuff.

[Northernridge]

The bottom line though is that AWD is no substitute for caution and engaging your brain in the winter.

Couldn't agree more - BUT...we're not talking about avoiding getting "stuck" as the sole benefit of AWD (and Subies in general).  My corolla with snow tires tracks quite well, hasn't ever been stuck, but does not stay nearly as stable while driving.

AWD is not absolutely mandatory to drive - I learned to drive in a 1992 Toyota Previa (RWD, offset mid-engine, regular all-seasons) that was just horrid in the winter (snow or otherwise).  Never had any accidents with it, but that doesn't mean that I always had control of it despite what I deem to be defensive driving.

With my Forester, good snow tires, and early braking techniques that controls traffic behind me, I can focus more on knowing what's around me, and I can avoid getting into situations where I need to make emergency manoeuvres. 

Hence, AWD + Snowies may not be absolutely necessary, but they sure do make winter driving a LOT safer and more predictable. 

And as for people having a false sense of security with AWD and/or Snow tires, those d-bags wouldn't drive any better without winter aides.

As far as 'increased fuel consumption' goes with AWD, look no further than the upcoming 2014 Forester (yes, I'm obsessed) - gets better fuel economy than the new FWD Rav4 and even the new Forester XT gets similar economy (better in the city) than the AWD, significantly less powerful Rav4.

Point - stop making excuses and thinking AWD isn't useful.  It's not mandatory, but it certainly has its uses.

I'm not sure I buy that AWD makes winter driving a lot safer...or hardly any safer at all. Crash statistics could probably settle it.

[Canadiain]

With my Forester, good snow tires, and early braking techniques that controls traffic behind me, I can focus more on knowing what's around me, and I can avoid getting into situations where I need to make emergency manoeuvres. 

There are a lot of deer where I live... they dont care about early breaking techniques as they come out of the woods at dusk to lick the salt of the roads.  AWD gets you going faster sooner, and thats not always a good thing when it doesnt help you stop any faster.

I still think there is a tendancy with AWD to drive a little faster than you would otherwise in the winter slop, if only because it shields you from some of the reality of the conditions because its so seamless in finding whatever grip there is.

But you are right, AWD means you can concentrate more on whats going on around you in the winter, and that can make a difference.

[Canadiain]

I'm not sure I buy that AWD makes winter driving a lot safer...or hardly any safer at all. Crash statistics could probably settle it.

Certainly the insurance premiums on my Legacy dont reflect any preferential advantages for AWD in the winter:D  Mind you, the Civic costs more:(

[canuckystan]

I really would have liked to see results with traction and stability control turned back ON.  Those systems were designed to prevent the kind of sliding around in turns that happened to both FWD vehicles in the test.

[WRX_Pilot]

Real men don't need anything but RWD and bald pigskins on the back in winter!

(disclaimer: I have a forester) 

[Canadiain]

I really would have liked to see results with traction and stability control turned back ON.  Those systems were designed to prevent the kind of sliding around in turns that happened to both FWD vehicles in the test.

Aye, it would make a bit of a mockery of the whole thing to turn off the systems that level the playing field.  My new civic has ESC etc and is significantly easier to drive in the snow and ice than the '08 it replaced that didnt have any of the traction or stability systems.

[G.Bombay]

" if Subaru could just perform a complete overhaul of the interior and exterior, they would have a serious contender in the mid-size sedan market."

Need AWD or not, I couldn't agree more with this statement.

[Fobroader]

Real men don't need anything but RWD and bald pigskins on the back in winter!

(disclaimer: I have a forester) 

So the two hair stylists talking about stability and traction control dont fall into your real men category?? 

[johngenx]

Subaru insurance premiums tend to be high thanks to very high repair costs. I don't know about numbers of claims, but  supposedly the per claim cost is high. Body panels and exterior parts are expensive.

I agree the electronic aids should be enabled, including on the Legacy. The Subarus I have driven so equipped have shown Subarus system to be well thought out, not hindering the AWD system.

The Legacy has a great chassis and aggressive pricing but the overall design seems dated compared to the Accord/Camry etc. I'd probably still buy it ahead of the Camry just for the chassis, but not if I lived where the weather was less extreme. We do have a FWD car in the family and while I'm no fan of that configuration, the little Corolla gets around very well on winter city streets.

[random006]

Did they have the same tires on?  Surely the only factors affecting how fast a car stops are the rubber, the mass of the vehicle, and how fast its going?   All things being equal AWD makes no difference to stopping distances???

Of course.  The reviewer wrote the following:

all of our test vehicles, the Legacy, Accord and Camry alike, had the same Bridgestone Blizzak tires installed on stock OEM tire sizes.

[Ace]

IMO, good winter tires are by far the most important factor for SAFE winter car handling.
How about a full road Comparison Test "Summer/All Season Tires vs Winter Tires on Ice".

[nlm]

Repeat after me:
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis,
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis,
powertrain (awd/rwd/fwd) is not the same as chasis....

The article highlights two main differences: powertrain and chasis; each are distinct and different. The braking and handling differences between the Legacy and the respective competitor Accord and Camry was due to the differences in weight distribution. This was most evident when they compared the Legacy 2.5 vs the Legacy 3.6 (with the same awd system of course).

After reading the reply comments I'm thinking the article is mis-titled: should've called it "The Benefits of Equal Weight Distribution" - to me that was the big showcase of the comparison.

[Fobroader]

IMO, good winter tires are by far the most important factor for SAFE winter car handling.
How about a full road Comparison Test "Summer/All Season Tires vs Winter Tires on Ice".

Yes, but a FWD and AWD car shod with whatever tires you like, on ice and snow, the AWD will kick the wrong wheel drives ass in every category.

[Canadiain]

Did they have the same tires on?  Surely the only factors affecting how fast a car stops are the rubber, the mass of the vehicle, and how fast its going?   All things being equal AWD makes no difference to stopping distances???

Of course.  The reviewer wrote the following:

all of our test vehicles, the Legacy, Accord and Camry alike, had the same Bridgestone Blizzak tires installed on stock OEM tire sizes.

And do the three vehicles all have the same stock OEM size or are some narrower or wider than the others, affecting the available grip levels?

[Blueprint]

Did they have the same tires on?  Surely the only factors affecting how fast a car stops are the rubber, the mass of the vehicle, and how fast its going?   All things being equal AWD makes no difference to stopping distances???

Of course.  The reviewer wrote the following:

all of our test vehicles, the Legacy, Accord and Camry alike, had the same Bridgestone Blizzak tires installed on stock OEM tire sizes.

...but they did not use the stock wheels on the Accord. The new gen only comes with alloys. In a controlled environment such as this, maybe the added unspring weight, plus offset et al had an effect on chassis behavior.

[Canadiain]

IMO, good winter tires are by far the most important factor for SAFE winter car handling.
How about a full road Comparison Test "Summer/All Season Tires vs Winter Tires on Ice".

Its not quite that, but it makes the case pretty convincingly for me.
http://www.wheels.ca/news/its-time-to-switch-to-winter-tires/

[Blueprint]

I'd also say that they drove on manicured snow, not real snow.

As Canadians know, real snow is in a shade of tannish brown, has the consistancy of mashed potatoes, and is spread over wet / black iced pavement, preferably with large paint markings, sometimes over iron manhole covers, often with ruts, potholes and strong or off-camber crowning.

[Fobroader]

I'd also say that they drove on manicured snow, not real snow.

As Canadians know, real snow is in a shade of tannish brown, has the consistancy of mashed potatoes, and is spread over wet / black iced pavement, preferably with large paint markings, sometimes over iron manhole covers, often with ruts, potholes and strong or off-camber crowning.

  Yup!!!

[Blueprint]

IMO, good winter tires are by far the most important factor for SAFE winter car handling.
How about a full road Comparison Test "Summer/All Season Tires vs Winter Tires on Ice".

Its not quite that, but it makes the case pretty convincingly for me.
http://www.wheels.ca/news/its-time-to-switch-to-winter-tires/

The other provinces could just follow Quebec's lead and make snow tires mandatory in winter (and Quebec should follow Ontario's wine pricing).