Topic: Used Vehicle Review: Smart Fortwo, 2005-2011

[2JDM]

Diesel is not always cheaper I believe. Its seasonal.

I find that Diesel is ~ the same price as 89 in the winter, but up to 10 cents less than 87 in the summer.

[richink]

I always thought of these cars as rather laughable cute little things until I drove one that was owned by one of my colleagues. My suspicions were confirmed far beyond what I could have imagined.

Smart cars are pathetically underpowered, have deplorable handling qualities and the refinement of a 10 pound sledgehammer. The Brabus model is laughable. They are a nuisance on rural highways because they are so slow, driving one on a freeway is taking your life into your hands. I remember ripping by one in my old 850 Turbo wagon a few years ago on the 401 and watching it wag in the wake turbulence. OK there is plenty of data out there that suggests otherwise, but simple physics tells me that a Smart would be easily flattened by the lion's share of vehicles on the road today. Add in that service is done through the MB network at inflated costs and questionable reliability? I'm surprised they haven't been run out of North America already.

Hopefully young people won't get wrapped up in the cheap purchase prices and the "cuteness" of these things.

[roaminglady]

Visiting here from South Africa, I came into this forum looking for comments from drivers of smart cars on how the vehicles handle winter here as I will be here for a while and was considering buying one and leaving it in the hands of one of my children when I leave.  After reading all the comments I am pretty much "gobsmacked" from all the negative comments on the smart car.  At home I have three smart Cars, mainly because I cant bare to let them "leave home" as they are, to me, the best car I have ever driven.  Now I have not driven one in Canada so perhaps they are built differently?    My first was bought 7 years ago and I accept that they were then built with the lesser power than the one that I have only had for three years but even then it most certainly has never been slow.  However, as the Canadian market has only recently got them I will comment on my later model one.  Driving in South Africa is perhaps a bit less diligently controlled and I regularly drive at 140 km per hour while sometimes forgetting how fast you can go without realizing it and getting to top of the clock at 160 km.  How can anyone can call that slow?  At one time I was on a long trip from Durban to Johannesburg and I had no problem keeping behind an Audi who tried very hard to shake off my presence by driving at 160 up hills!  He didnt manage .... My smart car can hold more in its rear than many much larger sedan vehicles.  I can zip in and out of long lines with no problem, parking it is a breeze and it is very comfortable. Yes, the gas consumption is a problem but that is mainly due to the use of air conditioning while driving and Merc should definitely look at that.  By the way, the smart is called so as it was designed by Swatch and built by Mercedes (Swatch Mercedes Art) and this is the reason for the no capital "S" when spelling it.  Do your selves a favor and stop looking at this wonderful car as comparison to a sedan vehicle and see it for what it is, a fast, fun vehicle built for two.  Anyone looking to give me a Hummer is welcome but I would just sell it to buy lots of little smart cars ......

[PJungnitsch]

....I am pretty much "gobsmacked" from all the negative comments on the smart car.

You have to separate the owners from those yelling from the bleachers.

Some people (almost always non-owners) just irrationally hate them. Hates them, they do. I've had a conversation with a motorcyclist on what a 'deathtrap' he thought a smart car was. A motorcyclist!

Actual owners here tend to be quite fond of the car itself, not so much the Mercedes parts and service cost.

[richink]

"Visiting here from South Africa"  "I will be here for a while and was considering buying one and leaving it in the hands of one of my children when I leave" "I regularly drive at 140 km per hour while sometimes forgetting how fast you can go without realizing it and getting to top of the clock at 160 km.  How can anyone can call that slow?  At one time I was on a long trip from Durban to Johannesburg and I had no problem keeping behind an Audi who tried very hard to shake off my presence by driving at 160 up hills!"  "give me a Hummer"

"You have to separate the owners from those yelling from the bleachers."

South Africa is very obviously a different market. Funny that you can get one up to 160 km/h considering the published maximum speed for a smart Fortwo is 90 mph or 145 km/h with 0 to 60 mph in over 13 seconds. That is slow when compared to pedestrian family sedans. Even my Volvo hits 60 in half of that, gets to 100 mph in about 13 seconds and still has 2 gears left.  As far as putting your kids in one of them here, again I reiterate simple physics vs. say a Hummer (which most people wouldn't drive in the first place). It just doesn't add up! Better (safer and cheaper) to put them into a smaller Asian make.

Yes I am yelling from the bleachers with some experience behind the wheel and the consult of a colleague who was in one for 4 years. When asked if hers would have done 140 km/h the answer was initially "not a chance" followed by " well, maybe on a downhill with a stiff tailwind but I still wouldn't do it".

Endearing to some perhaps, but then I guess to each their own when it comes to the love of one specific make or model. I can't even begin to explain my thing for late 70's and early 80's Volvo 240's....

Conclusion - these cars make sense for the small streets of Europe and Asia, but for North America and big highways running along with transport trucks and popular SUV's & minivans, less so.

[PJungnitsch]

Even my Volvo hits 60 in half of that, gets to 100 mph in about 13 seconds and still has 2 gears left.

Well, yeah, but your Volvo listed for almost $50,000 back in 2004. It should be faster than a car that starts around $13,900.

All that matters is that the smart is fast enough. My old truck did 0-60 in 20 seconds. More often than not, traffic was holding ME up.

As far as putting your kids in one of them here, again I reiterate simple physics vs. say a Hummer (which most people wouldn't drive in the first place). It just doesn't add up!

That's the problem with assumptions based on theory. They've sold over 20,000 smart cars in Canada so far and last month was the first fatality, a highway head on into a minivan that drifted across the line. The passenger, btw, survived. The cars have proved remarkably crashproof.

Better (safer and cheaper) to put them into a smaller Asian make.

Goes for anything 'different'. Motorcycles don't make sense, sportscars don't make sense, anything 'classic' and you might as well just shoot yourself in the head. But we all don't want to drive Corollas.

It's a niche car, optimized for parking, great for going to the shops and workable on the highway. What's the big problem?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

  Accident stats don't support the image of fragile tin can some people hold dear.

Physics cuts both ways. Smaller cars in a single car accident have less energy to dissipate and are less prone to roll overs. Roll overs do tend to cause higher fatality rates in SUVs/CUVs than in cars for those types of accidents.

[whaddaiknow]

Accident stats don't support the image of fragile tin can some people hold dear.

Physics cuts both ways. Smaller cars in a single car accident have less energy to dissipate and are less prone to roll overs. Roll overs do tend to cause higher fatality rates in SUVs/CUVs than in cars for those types of accidents.

That has nothing to do with survivability. The car can be structurally rigid and the shell may be engineered to sustain great loads but the human body has a limit at which brain and internal organs turn into a mush. It's not the fall that kills but the sudden stop, and the rate of deceleration is much higher in a smaller car.

Rollovers are different in nature and, unfortunately, many choose not to wear a seatbelt thinking they are invincible in a large SUV whereas the opposite is true. In a rollover, the larger taller vehicle generates much higher centrifugal forces causing more damage to the occupants, especially if they are not wearing a seatbelt. I'd be curious to see the stats on that and see the percentage of fatalities with occupants not wearing the seatbelt.

If the fatality is caused by ignorance and not wearing the seatbelt then it's not the car's fault, and the statistics are just that.
Can you produce a report that shows the statistics that apply specifically to me and my driving habits? Guess not.

Since I always do wear my seatbelt, and will not move the car until every occupant in my car is strapped, I feel safer in a larger vehicle.

That's the choice I've made based on what I think is common sense and my personal interpretation of all available statistical information out there.

If someone never wears a seatbelt and never drives on two way streets or highways then they actually may be better off in a small car with 11 airbags according to statistics.

I hate statistics, they're like a prostitute that politicians pay to sway public opinion for their own benefit. They can even "prove" that a small car is safer than the big car! How 'bout that! 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

20000 smarts sold in Canada. 1 fatality.

Your thought experiment doesn't really hold up. If it did, the list of ten deadliest cars would be made up of Fits and Versas and Accents, which isn't the case. The safest aren't made up of Silverado 2500s and Denalis and Expeditions either.

But whatever float your boat.

[richink]

Sure, but it sure looks like a dangerous boat. I was reminded of this thread as we drove home yesterday on the 401 from Trenton onwards. There was someone chugging along in one at various stages of behind us. It could not maintain 120 km/h up hills and was waving in the wind with it's driver making seemingly white knuckle adjustments to keep it stable.

Then my wife pipped up - one of her clients has one and loves it as a local go-getter, but would never even think of driving it on the highway.

[blur911]

Then my wife pipped up - one of her clients has one and loves it as a local go-getter, but would never even think of driving it on the highway.

I have found that nowadays many women don't feel safe unless they have 3 tons of SUV wrapped around them.

[johngenx]

I have found that nowadays many women don't feel safe unless they have 3 tons of SUV wrapped around them.

Happily, my missus is mostly the opposite.  She prefers small and maneuverable and easy to see out of.  But, you're right, as our soccer-moms mostly drive behemoths.

[safristi]

..."BEHEMOTHS??"................. FLAME away............

[Mike]

Sure, but it sure looks like a dangerous boat. I was reminded of this thread as we drove home yesterday on the 401 from Trenton onwards. There was someone chugging along in one at various stages of behind us. It could not maintain 120 km/h up hills and was waving in the wind with it's driver making seemingly white knuckle adjustments to keep it stable.

Then my wife pipped up - one of her clients has one and loves it as a local go-getter, but would never even think of driving it on the highway.

That is far from an accurate description on how they drive.  I have driven them on the highway, in the snow even.  I may or may not have had it over 130KM/H on the 407    They track quite true and are not that inclined to be pushed by the wind any more then your typical car. 

The only vehicle I have ever driven on a highway that is exactly how you described that car was a 2000 Dodge 15 Passenger Ram Van.  I have never driven something that wandered so badly of imitated a wind-sail as well.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

  I tried a diesel smart out on a very wet and windy day in Saint John. It tracked fine on the highway, even with high sidewinds and at 120km/hr. The Tercel I had at the time was all over the road on the trip down from Fredericton.

[Cord]

I would hazard a guess that typical use is what has kept Smart drivers from dying in greater numbers more than inherent vehicle safety. I'm assuming that the average Smart drives a relatively low number of kms per year and is almost exclusively driven in low speed, urban areas. I would also guess that a Silverado, Expedition, etc. would prove exceedingly safe if driven in the same manner and for the same distance annually as the average Smart.

If you looked at every accident that a Smart had been involved in and were able to substitute the Smart for a Tahoe, Expedition, etc. would the result have been worse for the occupants?

[Mike]

I would hazard a guess that typical use is what has kept Smart drivers from dying in greater numbers more than inherent vehicle safety. I'm assuming that the average Smart drives a relatively low number of kms per year and is almost exclusively driven in low speed, urban areas. I would also guess that a Silverado, Expedition, etc. would prove exceedingly safe if driven in the same manner and for the same distance annually as the average Smart.

If you looked at every accident that a Smart had been involved in and were able to substitute the Smart for a Tahoe, Expedition, etc. would the result have been worse for the occupants?

Depends on the year.  Early 2000's American trucks were some of the unsafest vehicles on the road in any crash test, late 2000 American trucks are some of the safest.  Look at the difference in one gen of F-150 for instance

Ford F-150 ('00) http://youtu.be/lB0araA0T_k
Ford F-150 ('04) http://youtu.be/1LkAzt_0qIg
Smart Pinball http://youtu.be/mz-s1sIoLhU (its not the crash to worry about, its the rebound!)

[PJungnitsch]

...the average Smart drives a relatively low number of kms per year and is almost exclusively driven in low speed, urban areas.

Because of the great mileage of the diesels a lot of people bought them for commuting and put on plenty of miles. We had one guy like that in our office. Every day two hrs on the highway.

[swl]

Lots of mis-information in this thread.  Brief synopsis from a guy with over 200km in a 2005 smart fortwo.  Applicable to the 450 model only.

Driver comfort is really a subjective thing.  For me this has been the most comfortable driving position and seat of any car I have owned.  The interior belies the small size of the car - I tell people it is only little on the outside.  The vibration from the little diesel is very noticable when lugging for maximum fuel economy.  That is the only distractor from a comfort point of view.

There have been some pretty spectacular accidents in a smart that people have survived.  The safety systems, particularly the Tridion Cell work.  My response when people say "I wouldn't want to be hit by a semi in that thing"?  "I wouldn't want to be hit by a semi in another semi!"  You drive this car like a motorcycle - treat everyone out there like they are trying to get you.  A little cynicism is a good thing in avoiding accidents.

Top speed in Canadian 450's is governed at 130.  It can reach and hold that speed under most conditions.  Remappers have reported faster speeds than that but they are crazy bunch.  Newsflash folks - 130 is 30Km/hour faster than maximium legal limit in most (all?) places in Canada.  The car cruises comfortable at the 'social norm' of 115 on the big highways.

Handling is actually very impressive.  The car tracks very well even at speed and is not particularly succeptible to truck wash.  I know that is counter intuitive because of it's size but it is really quite well mannered.  But because of short wheel base you can wander if you aren't paying attention.  And paying attention is something that a lot of drivers just don't do.  If you rock out, drinking your coffee while texting this is not the car for you.  Then again maybe no car is for you.

The transmission frustrates newbies.  You soon learn how to manage the throttle to make shifts smooth.  You cannot, however, do a full throttle accelleration without some bucking.  Same as any other car but the short wheelbase really amplifies it. 

Although sold as a 'City' car the smart really comes into it's own as a commuter car where you can get it up to 80-100Km hr for extended periods of time.  4.1L/100Km is easily achievable under these conditions (450 only - post 2006 the gassers are unimpressive).

Reliability is a definite issue.  This car really was designed for lesser climates than ours and has not taken well to the Canadian environment.  Some of the problem areas exist globally so there is some engineering flaws for the rest of the world. Amongst the problem areas:
Brake light switch.  Originally very common but recalled and re-engineered.  Some faults still show up due to corrossion.
ABS sensor.  Again corrosion issues cracking the rings.
Front springs.  Prone to breakage.  Aftermarket springs a bit better.
Door handles.  Improper (or no) lubrication during periodic maintenence leads to handles sticking open - you can't close the door.  Under investigation by Transportation Canada as a safety recall.
Intercooler.  Prior to late 2006 a badly designed intercooler holder wore through the tubes causing the intercoolers to need to be replaced. 
EGR.  Fouls easily.  When the EGR throws a code the car goes into limp mode and will not give full power.  IMHO this is another safety issue that TC should investigate.
Catastrophic timing chain failures have been reported.

MB charges outrageous prices for some of their maintenance parts. 

Used car buyers should understand that 200-250,000km is probably the reasonable limit for this car without extensive work.  If you are thinking about buying one go to clubsmartcar.com and get some  guidance from that community.

Great little car, really glad that I had the time with it.  But it is not the sort of classic that will worth keeping alive for decades. 

[blur911]

Lots of mis-information in this thread.  Brief synopsis from a guy with over 200km in a 2005 smart fortwo.  Applicable to the 450 model only.

Driver comfort is really a subjective thing.  For me this has been the most comfortable driving position and seat of any car I have owned.  The interior belies the small size of the car - I tell people it is only little on the outside.  The vibration from the little diesel is very noticable when lugging for maximum fuel economy.  That is the only distractor from a comfort point of view.

There have been some pretty spectacular accidents in a smart that people have survived.  The safety systems, particularly the Tridion Cell work.  My response when people say "I wouldn't want to be hit by a semi in that thing"?  "I wouldn't want to be hit by a semi in another semi!"  You drive this car like a motorcycle - treat everyone out there like they are trying to get you.  A little cynicism is a good thing in avoiding accidents.

Top speed in Canadian 450's is governed at 130.  It can reach and hold that speed under most conditions.  Remappers have reported faster speeds than that but they are crazy bunch.  Newsflash folks - 130 is 30Km/hour faster than maximium legal limit in most (all?) places in Canada.  The car cruises comfortable at the 'social norm' of 115 on the big highways.

Handling is actually very impressive.  The car tracks very well even at speed and is not particularly succeptible to truck wash.  I know that is counter intuitive because of it's size but it is really quite well mannered.  But because of short wheel base you can wander if you aren't paying attention.  And paying attention is not something that a lot of drivers just don't do.  If you rock out, drinking your coffee while texting this is not the car for you.  Then again maybe no car is for you.

The transmission frustrates newbies.  You soon learn how to manage the throttle to make shifts smooth.  You cannot, however, do a full throttle accelleration without some bucking.  Same as any other car but the short wheelbase really amplifies it. 

Although sold as a 'City' car the smart really comes into it's own as a commuter car where you can get it up to 80-100Km hr for extended periods of time.  4.1L/100Km is easily achievable under these conditions (450 only - post 2006 the gassers are unimpressive).

Reliability is a definite issue.  This car really was designed for lesser climates than ours and has not taken well to the Canadian environment.  Some of the problem areas exist globally so there is some engineering flaws for the rest of the world. Amongst the problem areas:
Brake light switch.  Originally very common but recalled and re-engineered.  Some faults still show up due to corrossion.
ABS sensor.  Again corrosion issues cracking the rings.
Front springs.  Prone to breakage.  Aftermarket springs a bit better.
Door handles.  Improper (or no) lubrication during periodic maintenence leads to handles sticking open - you can't close the door.  Under investigation by Transportation Canada as a safety recall.
Intercooler.  Prior to late 2006 a badly designed intercooler holder wore through the tubes causing the intercoolers to need to be replaced. 
EGR.  Fouls easily.  When the EGR throws a code the car goes into limp mode and will not give full power.  IMHO this is another safety issue that TC should investigate.
Catastrophic timing chain failures have been reported.

MB charges outrageous prices for some of their maintenance parts. 

Used car buyers should understand that 200-250,000km is probably the reasonable limit for this car without extensive work.  If you are thinking about buying one go to clubsmartcar.com and get some  guidance from that community.

Great little car, really glad that I had the time with it.  But it is not the sort of classic that will worth keeping alive for decades.

Thanks for the view of the Smart from the owners seat.  Always good to know how something a bit unusual is to live with.

Also, welcome to the forum, always good to hear from a local- to-me fellow Porsche person.