Topic: Northern Exposure: Santa Fe vs Snowstorm

[Patrick_D1]

There is no disagreement that winter tires help you stop in shorter distances...

BUT...
Do winter tires give you confidence to travel "faster" than the local condition and relatively faster than the "other" cars around you?

For instance the freeway normally 80kph speed limit.
Winter tires and someone is driving at 80kph but "other" people "without winters" are driving at 50kph.

Who is the larger risk? Both are going at a reasonable speed to their conditions yet if they cross paths/merge there is an accident waiting to happen.

Are you going to tell me mandatory winter tire use in Quebec has reduced collision to zero?

You can use a screwdriver as a hammer, but that doesn't make it the right choice for driving a nail.

Driver ability and common sense aren't relevant to the discussion, if you ask me. The effect of winter tires is binary. Equip winter tires, gain significant traction in cold weather and slippery conditions. I don't know about you, but I like having the right tool for the job at hand.

[nlm]

Is relatively quick to turn off the stability control, like just a press of a button, or do you have to hold a button for 5 seconds, swear out loud that you understand the risks associated with the behaviour, stomp your left foot twice, then your right foot thrice before it deactivates?

[Northernridge]

How about local authorities just plough the roads? Worst year in Winnipeg in my memory for street clearing. And, it is Winnipeg because the province and a small city to the north have both done a much better job then the 'big' city. Thank Christ I don't pay my municipal taxes here.

One of our dumbass Winnipeg City Councillors said publicly that he drives an AWD Subaru and implied that Winnipegger's should just buy better cars to deal with the road conditions.

[Patrick_D1]

Is relatively quick to turn off the stability control, like just a press of a button, or do you have to hold a button for 5 seconds, swear out loud that you understand the risks associated with the behaviour, stomp your left foot twice, then your right foot thrice before it deactivates?

The ESC is the Santa Fe is really simple. One press of the button deactivates traction control. Hold the button for three seconds to deactivate both TCS and ESC. Also, off means fully off.

[Black Hatch]

There is no disagreement that winter tires help you stop in shorter distances...

BUT...
Do winter tires give you confidence to travel "faster" than the local condition and relatively faster than the "other" cars around you?

For instance the freeway normally 80kph speed limit.
Winter tires and someone is driving at 80kph but "other" people "without winters" are driving at 50kph.

Who is the larger risk? Both are going at a reasonable speed to their conditions yet if they cross paths/merge there is an accident waiting to happen.

Are you going to tell me mandatory winter tire use in Quebec has reduced collision to zero?

You can use a screwdriver as a hammer, but that doesn't make it the right choice for driving a nail.

Driver ability and common sense aren't relevant to the discussion, if you ask me. The effect of winter tires is binary. Equip winter tires, gain significant traction in cold weather and slippery conditions. I don't know about you, but I like having the right tool for the job at hand.

I question your "right tools" for winter driving.
If that were the case see northern ridges post about having AWD and high ground clearance.

I think what would be ideal is that Canada car manufacturer should sell all vehicles with "winter tires" or better all-weather tires (like Nokia WGs) standard like how most provinces sell block heaters standard with their vehicles. Hey anyone in Alberta and Manitoba able to get a car without them?

[dkaz]

I'd support winter tire legislation in Manitoba.   

Put me down for Alberta.

Sent from my Galaxy S3

Would you support regular cars with low ground clearance to remain off of unplowed roads during a snowstorm due to the likehood of getting stuck?

That would be great, but too many people would moan and whine about it.

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My lowered Corolla did fine in the big snow dump of 2008.



(I removed the rest of the snow after taking this photo, I was just making my Corolla look like a Subie. )

[Fobroader]

I'd support winter tire legislation in Manitoba.   

Put me down for Alberta.

Sent from my Galaxy S3

Would you support regular cars with low ground clearance to remain off of unplowed roads during a snowstorm due to the likehood of getting stuck?

That would be great, but too many people would moan and whine about it.

Sent from my Galaxy S3

My lowered Corolla did fine in the big snow dump of 2008.



(I removed the rest of the snow after taking this photo, I was just making my Corolla look like a Subie. )

Just by being a member on the board shows that you are interested in cars and driving.....the vast texting, "I have a blue car" when asked what kind of car they have public, are a danger to themselves and others in those kind of conditions.

[Black Hatch]

My RX-8 did okay as well.
Used the front as a shovel a few times.

The only problem was when the snow was over 1 foot deep.
My CX-5 is much more "comfortable" to drive in snow with the addition of ground clearance and AWD.

[Fobroader]

Thats my argument for AWD/4x4 and snow tires, mother nature is a beiotch and tries her best to get us to fly off the road.....any kind of advantage I can get on her, why not??

[dkaz]

Our gas is not 99 cents a litre like in Alberta, that's why the Impreza quickly fell off the radar.

[Fobroader]

Our gas is not 99 cents a litre like in Alberta, that's why the Impreza quickly fell off the radar.

I dont know, for me gas prices have never been influential in the purchase of a vehicle. I look at cars for their intended purpose, a couple of bucks at fill up wont influence my decision.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

There is no disagreement that winter tires help you stop in shorter distances...

BUT...
Do winter tires give you confidence to travel "faster" than the local condition and relatively faster than the "other" cars around you?

For instance the freeway normally 80kph speed limit.
Winter tires and someone is driving at 80kph but "other" people "without winters" are driving at 50kph.

Who is the larger risk? Both are going at a reasonable speed to their conditions yet if they cross paths/merge there is an accident waiting to happen.

Are you going to tell me mandatory winter tire use in Quebec has reduced collision to zero?

The study (PDF, in French only) by the Quebec Ministry of Transport concludes that all winter accidents fell by 17 percent compared with the five winters preceding the enactment of the law, while accidents causing deaths or serious injuries fell by 36 percent. In Montreal, which held the lowest rate of winter tire use before the law was enacted, serious accidents fell by 46 percent.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/in-quebec-winter-tire-law-reaps-a-modest-measure-of-success/?_r=0

Those are pretty huge reductions.

Snow tires should definitely be mandatory here. Intersections get polished into glass. Assholes with all-seasons either end up blowing through red lights and smacking the out of cross-traffic, or end up sitting there spinning or getting bogged by their traction controls systems, going nowhere and holding up traffic.

No amount of talent makes up for zero traction.

[dkaz]

Good find, Osis. I wonder if Canuckystan can find something to back his numbers up.

I dont know, for me gas prices have never been influential in the purchase of a vehicle. I look at cars for their intended purpose, a couple of bucks at fill up wont influence my decision.

True, which is why I have my minivan.

I only have to deal with snow covered roads maybe 1% of the year... 3.65 days a year, that's an overestimate some years. Subaru is pretty old tech, dated interior, 5 speed manual, so AWD is pretty much its only advantage, and I didn't feel like being penalized 99% of the year with higher fuel costs and a sloppy shifter in an interior mildly more modern than my old 91 Corolla.

Just by being a member on the board shows that you are interested in cars and driving.....the vast texting, "I have a blue car" when asked what kind of car they have public, are a danger to themselves and others in those kind of conditions.

Gold star for everyone! In all seriousness, ever notice that VWs and Mazdas seem to have the highest usage of winter tires (on ugly steel wheels) compared to any of the manufacturers? And these two are regarded as drivers' cars, so this speaks volumes.

[Solstice2006]

Our gas is not 99 cents a litre like in Alberta, that's why the Impreza quickly fell off the radar.

I dont know, for me gas prices have never been influential in the purchase of a vehicle. I look at cars for their intended purpose, a couple of bucks at fill up wont influence my decision.

Well your in the minority, all the car manufactures are working on improving fuel economy.  If I have $25,000 to spend on a vehicle to commute 100km a day to Toronto, it's not going to be a CUV with AWD that gets around 11L/100km, it's going to be a compact or midsize that gets 8L/100km.  That's $4 difference everyday, or $20 a fill up. Imagine if it was a Tahoe!  Now if you need a Tahoe to tow the  trailer in the summer that's something different. 

But here in southwestern Ontario, AWD is not mandatory, winters tires are good enough.

[Black Hatch]

The study (PDF, in French only) by the Quebec Ministry of Transport concludes that all winter accidents fell by 17 percent compared with the five winters preceding the enactment of the law, while accidents causing deaths or serious injuries fell by 36 percent. In Montreal, which held the lowest rate of winter tire use before the law was enacted, serious accidents fell by 46 percent.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/in-quebec-winter-tire-law-reaps-a-modest-measure-of-success/?_r=0

Those are pretty huge reductions.

Snow tires should definitely be mandatory here. Intersections get polished into glass. Assholes with all-seasons either end up blowing through red lights and smacking the out of cross-traffic, or end up sitting there spinning or getting bogged by their traction controls systems, going nowhere and holding up traffic.

No amount of talent makes up for zero traction.

Did you not miss the paragraph after?

"The report’s authors noted that since the tire law came into being, road accidents in all four seasons had declined for a variety of reasons. But even after controlling for the factors that improved year-round road safety, the ministry attributed a net accident reduction of 5 percent to the winter-tire law."

5% net accident reduction I would say is a pretty Small amount.
I'm waiting for further yearly studies.
I'm sure the first year will have a great percentage of reductions but then the year after people realize you can push to limits more and you get right back to the same rate. Possibly.

Also in the story there is a link of Saskatchewan REJECTING mandatory winter tire use.
Maybe you have more info why.

[Black Hatch]

I don't mean to imply that winter tires are not necessary, I would agree that all vehicles should have them during winter.

I'm just saying I don't believe that everyone with winter tires will significantly reduce the amount of collisions.

Hope that's clear.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

The study (PDF, in French only) by the Quebec Ministry of Transport concludes that all winter accidents fell by 17 percent compared with the five winters preceding the enactment of the law, while accidents causing deaths or serious injuries fell by 36 percent. In Montreal, which held the lowest rate of winter tire use before the law was enacted, serious accidents fell by 46 percent.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/in-quebec-winter-tire-law-reaps-a-modest-measure-of-success/?_r=0

Those are pretty huge reductions.

Snow tires should definitely be mandatory here. Intersections get polished into glass. Assholes with all-seasons either end up blowing through red lights and smacking the out of cross-traffic, or end up sitting there spinning or getting bogged by their traction controls systems, going nowhere and holding up traffic.

No amount of talent makes up for zero traction.

Did you not miss the paragraph after?

"The report’s authors noted that since the tire law came into being, road accidents in all four seasons had declined for a variety of reasons. But even after controlling for the factors that improved year-round road safety, the ministry attributed a net accident reduction of 5 percent to the winter-tire law."

5% net accident reduction I would say is a pretty Small amount.
I'm waiting for further yearly studies.
I'm sure the first year will have a great percentage of reductions but then the year after people realize you can push to limits more and you get right back to the same rate. Possibly.

Also in the story there is a link of Saskatchewan REJECTING mandatory winter tire use.
Maybe you have more info why.

Considering that 90% of Quebec drivers used snow tires prior to the law being enacted 5% net change is a big deal.

Also:

“We noticed before that the 10 percent of motorists using all-season tires were implicated in 33 percent of accidents in winter,” said Caroline Larose, a Montreal-based spokeswoman for the ministry.

Saskatchewan has a libertarian streak which constitutes a significant part of the Saskatchewan, nee Tory, party. They don't want to institute any laws because "the people know better than the gub'mint". 

Saskatchewan currently has some of the lowest winter tire usage rates, somewhere around 33% of drivers use them. That fact becomes blatantly obvious at almost every intersection once even a whiff of snow comes down.

[Northernridge]

The study (PDF, in French only) by the Quebec Ministry of Transport concludes that all winter accidents fell by 17 percent compared with the five winters preceding the enactment of the law, while accidents causing deaths or serious injuries fell by 36 percent. In Montreal, which held the lowest rate of winter tire use before the law was enacted, serious accidents fell by 46 percent.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/07/in-quebec-winter-tire-law-reaps-a-modest-measure-of-success/?_r=0

Those are pretty huge reductions.

Snow tires should definitely be mandatory here. Intersections get polished into glass. Assholes with all-seasons either end up blowing through red lights and smacking the out of cross-traffic, or end up sitting there spinning or getting bogged by their traction controls systems, going nowhere and holding up traffic.

No amount of talent makes up for zero traction.

Did you not miss the paragraph after?

"The report’s authors noted that since the tire law came into being, road accidents in all four seasons had declined for a variety of reasons. But even after controlling for the factors that improved year-round road safety, the ministry attributed a net accident reduction of 5 percent to the winter-tire law."

5% net accident reduction I would say is a pretty Small amount.
I'm waiting for further yearly studies.
I'm sure the first year will have a great percentage of reductions but then the year after people realize you can push to limits more and you get right back to the same rate. Possibly.

Also in the story there is a link of Saskatchewan REJECTING mandatory winter tire use.
Maybe you have more info why.

So 5 in 100 few accidents or 50 in 1,000. Manitoba had 18,500 auto collision claims in December. So, if we were all on snows this past Dec, that stat might have shown 925 fewer crashes...for one month. Would be a damn good start.

[Fobroader]

Our gas is not 99 cents a litre like in Alberta, that's why the Impreza quickly fell off the radar.

I dont know, for me gas prices have never been influential in the purchase of a vehicle. I look at cars for their intended purpose, a couple of bucks at fill up wont influence my decision.

Well your in the minority, all the car manufactures are working on improving fuel economy.  If I have $25,000 to spend on a vehicle to commute 100km a day to Toronto, it's not going to be a CUV with AWD that gets around 11L/100km, it's going to be a compact or midsize that gets 8L/100km.  That's $4 difference everyday, or $20 a fill up. Imagine if it was a Tahoe!  Now if you need a Tahoe to tow the  trailer in the summer that's something different. 

But here in southwestern Ontario, AWD is not mandatory, winters tires are good enough.

Well, this year, AWD might not be a bad thing to have in Southern Ontario......  Here in Alberta, its just another safety device to help you get through winter. Is it mandatory....no.....is it a great thing to have, absolutely. I think in this province, snow tires should be mandatory.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Pretty coincidental. The bus I'm on was just rear ended. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the car had all seasons.

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