Topic: Toyota to move Corolla production to Mexico

[dirtyjeffer]

Canada doesn't have a King that owns all the resources, so our structure is going to be vastly different than a nation whose resources are state owned...as well, a decade of mismanagement from our Provincial government has driven the cost of doing business here up, which has had a part in much of those losses...with the upcoming pension plan and cap and trade program, it's only going to get worse.

[tpl]

We pay far to much attention to assorted 'activists' and protesters. This is one reason why it is difficult to get the country on the path to being as rich as it ought to be.   The first problem we can't do anything about...being next door to the Americans with, currently, their totally non-functional government and their habit of doing as they choose with no regard to the rest of the world.
Internally there are  four main problems.
The provincial governments. They have too much power which when one reads some of the history of Canada  early after 1867 was not intended by the  federal government.  Cut off their equalization or possibly use the Federal governments reserve powers to ignore them.
Environmentalists.  Change the laws about environmental assessments... just a bit.
Nimbies   Just ignore them .
Natives, the most difficult but a good start would be to write the whole concept of 'first nations' out of the constitution and replace it with the idea that all Canadian citizens are equal.

[pi314]

Well the whole reason equalization payments ended up being a thing is because there were larger tariffs on things coming in from NS rather than other ports. Confederation also made it more difficult for the Maritimes to trade with Boston (which is closer geographically and was a bigger trading partner pre confederation)

[Snowman]

We pay far to much attention to assorted 'activists' and protesters. This is one reason why it is difficult to get the country on the path to being as rich as it ought to be.   The first problem we can't do anything about...being next door to the Americans with, currently, their totally non-functional government and their habit of doing as they choose with no regard to the rest of the world.
Internally there are  four main problems.
The provincial governments. They have too much power which when one reads some of the history of Canada  early after 1867 was not intended by the  federal government.  Cut off their equalization or possibly use the Federal governments reserve powers to ignore them.
Environmentalists.  Change the laws about environmental assessments... just a bit.
Nimbies   Just ignore them .
Natives, the most difficult but a good start would be to write the whole concept of 'first nations' out of the constitution and replace it with the idea that all Canadian citizens are equal.

Good list, add Quebec and the language issue to the list that burdens Canada with poor competitiveness.

[northsparrow]

A Mexican citizen making auto parts makes around $1 per hour. A Mexican working directly on the assembly line for a highly profitable global Car company makes about $ 3 per hour.

21 years after NAFTA their living standard is still appalling and the big corporations laugh all the way to the bank.

Car companies used to generate some of their own customers by providing middle class jobs in their own factories. If this model is further undermined  by the continuation and expansion
of suicidal trade agreements like NAFTA our economy will continue to falter.

[Noto]

One of the tags on the Tilley Hat I bought today...

I have the same hat!  I fricken love that thing - bought it YEARS ago (at least 5) before going south somewhere and use it on every hike, every day at the beach, even in the water.  It's amazing.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

We pay far to much attention to assorted 'activists' and protesters. This is one reason why it is difficult to get the country on the path to being as rich as it ought to be.   The first problem we can't do anything about...being next door to the Americans with, currently, their totally non-functional government and their habit of doing as they choose with no regard to the rest of the world.
Internally there are  four main problems.
The provincial governments. They have too much power which when one reads some of the history of Canada  early after 1867 was not intended by the  federal government.  Cut off their equalization or possibly use the Federal governments reserve powers to ignore them.
Environmentalists.  Change the laws about environmental assessments... just a bit.
Nimbies   Just ignore them .
Natives, the most difficult but a good start would be to write the whole concept of 'first nations' out of the constitution and replace it with the idea that all Canadian citizens are equal.

Corporate think tanks and lobbyists exercise far more control over especially this government than any of the environmental groups.

[Bubba]

One of the tags on the Tilley Hat I bought today...

I have the same hat!  I fricken love that thing - bought it YEARS ago (at least 5) before going south somewhere and use it on every hike, every day at the beach, even in the water.  It's amazing.

Tilleys are great.  Bought one before my first visit to Arizona in 2005.

[KD]

One of the tags on the Tilley Hat I bought today...

I have the same hat!  I fricken love that thing - bought it YEARS ago (at least 5) before going south somewhere and use it on every hike, every day at the beach, even in the water.  It's amazing.

Tilleys are great.  Bought one before my first visit to Arizona in 2005.

Love em and almost bought another.  I had my last one for over 10 years and they get better with age. 

[Noto]

One of the tags on the Tilley Hat I bought today...

I have the same hat!  I fricken love that thing - bought it YEARS ago (at least 5) before going south somewhere and use it on every hike, every day at the beach, even in the water.  It's amazing.

Tilleys are great.  Bought one before my first visit to Arizona in 2005.

Love em and almost bought another.  I had my last one for over 10 years and they get better with age. 

FFIL has had his for a little over 18 years now.  It looks worn, but is not even remotely fraying or in any other way disintegrating.

[OliverD]

A Mexican citizen making auto parts makes around $1 per hour. A Mexican working directly on the assembly line for a highly profitable global Car company makes about $ 3 per hour.

21 years after NAFTA their living standard is still appalling and the big corporations laugh all the way to the bank.

Car companies used to generate some of their own customers by providing middle class jobs in their own factories. If this model is further undermined  by the continuation and expansion
of suicidal trade agreements like NAFTA our economy will continue to falter.

So would these Mexican workers be doing better if these jobs didn't exist?

[Noto]

A Mexican citizen making auto parts makes around $1 per hour. A Mexican working directly on the assembly line for a highly profitable global Car company makes about $ 3 per hour.

21 years after NAFTA their living standard is still appalling and the big corporations laugh all the way to the bank.

Car companies used to generate some of their own customers by providing middle class jobs in their own factories. If this model is further undermined  by the continuation and expansion
of suicidal trade agreements like NAFTA our economy will continue to falter.

So would these Mexican workers be doing better if these jobs didn't exist?

Does that make it right?  Removing jobs (if not now, eventually) from Ontario, and continuing low wage positions for the Mexican workers?

It'd be better if the auto manufacturers said "hey Mexico, let's make a deal.  You give us some tax breaks and we'll pay your workers a decent wage compared to the rest of the world!"

...but that wouldn't maximize profits, now would it...

[Sir Osis of Liver]

"Hey Mexico. You can be part of our trading block if you meet our environmental and labour standards."

[OliverD]

A Mexican citizen making auto parts makes around $1 per hour. A Mexican working directly on the assembly line for a highly profitable global Car company makes about $ 3 per hour.

21 years after NAFTA their living standard is still appalling and the big corporations laugh all the way to the bank.

Car companies used to generate some of their own customers by providing middle class jobs in their own factories. If this model is further undermined  by the continuation and expansion
of suicidal trade agreements like NAFTA our economy will continue to falter.

So would these Mexican workers be doing better if these jobs didn't exist?

Does that make it right?  Removing jobs (if not now, eventually) from Ontario, and continuing low wage positions for the Mexican workers?

It'd be better if the auto manufacturers said "hey Mexico, let's make a deal.  You give us some tax breaks and we'll pay your workers a decent wage compared to the rest of the world!"

...but that wouldn't maximize profits, now would it...

Wages are market dependent. Just because I could make a bunch more money in Toronto doesn't mean that my salary is low. Wages for Mexican autoworkers are low relative to those in the U.S. and Canada but that hardly a valid comparison.

The average pay at his plant, Rabago said, is $3.20 an hour, but he said wage comparisons to U.S. workers miss a Mexican reality. “When I came here 20 years ago, people didn’t even have indoor plumbing,” he said. “Now they have pickup trucks, satellite TV and send their kids to universities.”

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/with-mexican-auto-manufacturing-boom-new-worries/2013/07/01/10dd57e8-d7d9-11e2-b418-9dfa095e125d_story.html

You think $22k is too much to spend on a Corolla but at the same time you want that car to be built in Canada by works who get paid $35/hr plus benefits. You can't have it both ways.

[Noto]

"Hey Mexico. You can be part of our trading block if you meet our environmental and labour standards."

That's more like it 

You think $22k is too much to spend on a Corolla but at the same time you want that car to be built in Canada by works who get paid $35/hr plus benefits. You can't have it both ways.

For the record, I said $22k is too much for the Corolla because the one for $20k is a great value.  I think $22k for a Corolla notwithstanding is a good price.  I think $36k for a loaded WRX with a CVT is also a stellar price.

I think $40k for a CLA250 4Matic is absurd on a relative basis.

Now that we have that straight, I am not presupposing that Canadian labourers indeed are deserving of $35/hr plus benefits.  That may be what they command (thanks to unions), but certainly minimum wages must be reasonable and $3.20/hr is not.  I'm sure the cost of living in Pueblo is much lower than in Cambridge, but it's not something a kid with a piggie bank can afford.

Besides, Corolla production has been in Canada for how long, paying the workers how much, and did the price of said car skyrocket?  Nope.  Toyota stands to win from this, not the cost of our vehicles.

[blur911]

Now that we have that straight, I am not presupposing that Canadian labourers indeed are deserving of $35/hr plus benefits.  That may be what they command (thanks to unions), but certainly minimum wages must be reasonable and $3.20/hr is not. 

How much extra pay would you expect for doing your job if one day your boss said "You're now on shiftwork, expect to knock a few years off your lifespan, get a sleep disorder, be tired all the time (and look it) and reduce your cognitive function significantly".   It's not always just the work that "deserves" decent pay, sometimes it all the added benefits you get as well.   The manufacturing sector runs 24hrs a day to be profitable and people work long hours and shiftwork. 

When's the last time you fell asleep at 4AM at work while still standing up?  What's the minimum wage for lawyers?

[dirtyjeffer]

"Hey Mexico. You can be part of our trading block if you meet our environmental and labour standards."

that is why i never understood why Mexico was part of NAFTA...i think a USA/Canada NAFTA program is good, as is other similar free trade programs with similar regions (like Europe for example).

i actually think a new free trade program made up just like that should exist...all countries are welcome to join, provided they have similar labour/environment standards...it would eliminate this nonsense and prevent any exploitation of people for corporate greed.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

"Hey Mexico. You can be part of our trading block if you meet our environmental and labour standards."

that is why i never understood why Mexico was part of NAFTA...i think a USA/Canada NAFTA program is good, as is other similar free trade programs with similar regions (like Europe for example).

i actually think a new free trade program made up just like that should exist...all countries are welcome to join, provided they have similar labour/environment standards...it would eliminate this nonsense and prevent any exploitation of people for corporate greed.

  Trudeau was negotiating with the Europeans to try and come to some sort of trade deal. He understood that it would be better to join in with a bunch of relatively smaller powers to liberalize trade than entering into a bilateral agreement with the US, which was only ever going to be an asymmetrical deal.

Adding an under developed country of ~120M into the deal was only ever going to syphon employment from us and depress wages.

[tpl]

"Hey Mexico. You can be part of our trading block if you meet our environmental and labour standards."

that is why i never understood why Mexico was part of NAFTA...i think a USA/Canada NAFTA program is good, as is other similar free trade programs with similar regions (like Europe for example).

i actually think a new free trade program made up just like that should exist...all countries are welcome to join, provided they have similar labour/environment standards...it would eliminate this nonsense and prevent any exploitation of people for corporate greed.

  Trudeau was negotiating with the Europeans to try and come to some sort of trade deal. He understood that it would be better to join in with a bunch of relatively smaller powers to liberalize trade than entering into a bilateral agreement with the US, which was only ever going to be an asymmetrical deal.

Adding an under developed country of ~120M into the deal was only ever going to syphon employment from us and depress wages.

I remember that and I remember it as PET wondering if Canada could actually JOIN the EEC ( as it was then). I paid attention as I thought then and think now that Canada would be FAR better off inside the EU ( as it is now) than in a managed trade agreement with the USA.  Obviously I only remember what was in the press but his initiative was DOA as the Treaty of Rome restricts membership to European countries although if the EU wanted Canada to be a member it could be arranged.

A quote from the always authoritative Wikipedia 

It has been speculated as early on as 2005 that Canada could—some say should—join the European Union. Proponents argue that the cultural and political values of Canadians and Europeans have much in common, and that Canadian membership would strengthen both sides politically and economically. While conceding that Canada and Europe are over 3,000 km (1,900 mi) distant,[a] being separated by the North Atlantic, proponents note that the EU already has a member, Cyprus, that is geographically outside Europe.

In addition, CETA is possibly the farthest-reaching FTA between the EU and a foreign country. Because of the nature of CETA, some have said that it wouldn't be that far of a leap to EU membership. There have not been any polls conducted on the opinions of Europeans or Canadians regarding closer relations and EU membership. Anglophone nations in the EU, such as the UK and Ireland would likely support Canadian membership, and it might decrease Eurosceptic attitudes in the UK while strengthening the Anglophone bloc in the EU. Furthermore, the province of Quebéc would help to strengthen the Francophone bloc in the EU, with Francophone nations such as France, Luxembourg and Belgium likely to support Canadian membership. EU membership may also help to curb separatist sentiments in Quebec. In addition, it may decrease Canadian dependence on the United States regarding trade, and security. It would also easily meet the Copenhagen Criteria for EU membership. Additionally, the EU is Canada's second-largest trading partner, and with EU membership, it could become the first-largest. Canadian and EU officials have not yet commented on this

[Snowman]

Yes, joining up with EU would have been much better for Canada than selling our soul to the US devil.