Topic: Acura TSX vs VW Jetta GLI review.

[mark]

The words Impreza and premium should NEVER be in the same sentence, especially not when a less expensive '06 Civic puts it to shame in terms of interior materials and design quality.

How about:
"A 25% premium was put on the contract offered to NASIOC members to affix an "I'd rather be driving a Subaru Impreza" bumper sticker to Shnak's car, on the condition it be completed before sundown."
  I kill me!

[wing]

it shouldn' have to be this way: subaru's impreza line (both the base and the wrx) is an example of how you can build a premium small car with minimal maintenance nightmares for the owner down the road. they pay a lot up front and very little down the road.

The words Impreza and premium should NEVER be in the same sentence, especially not when a less expensive '06 Civic puts it to shame in terms of interior materials and design quality.

I drove both yesterday, I'd take the impreza over the civic. 

[lebowski]

shnak, i have to disagree with you. i thought the same as you did until i drove an '05 base impreza while i was car shopping last year. granted, the perceived quality is dubious, and by that i mean the little things like the quality of the paint, interior plastics, crappy standard radio etc. But mechanical bits of these cars eclipse anything else in it's class: mazda3, civic, sentra, etc. So what are you paying more for? AWD, terrific standard safety features, strong, torquey engine, basically all the important stuff that you can't see - oh, and it never breaks, at least according to the 7 impreza owners i know. for me, the definition of a premium car is one whose features you pay more for because they aren't offered on lesser cars. that's the suby for me. i'll take kick-butt AWD drivetrains over shiny interior lights any day of the week.

L

[Shnak]

it shouldn' have to be this way: subaru's impreza line (both the base and the wrx) is an example of how you can build a premium small car with minimal maintenance nightmares for the owner down the road. they pay a lot up front and very little down the road.

The words Impreza and premium should NEVER be in the same sentence, especially not when a less expensive '06 Civic puts it to shame in terms of interior materials and design quality.

I drove both yesterday, I'd take the impreza over the civic. 

Sure, but this isn't the question... he said the Impreza was a premium compact car... when you say premium, that means Volvo S40, BMW 3-Series, etc. Not Impreza. That's all I'm saying.

[ovr50]

I'd have trouble taking the Impreza over the new Civic based on my past '02 Impreza. Have not driven a new Impreza nor the Civic but hope to test out a Civic soon.

I would not put Impreza in the premium catagory. Pretty bare bones and noisy - my '02. I don't think noisy cars are premium, don't care what name is on them.

[lebowski]

um, ok. by that logic how about an Impreza WRX with leather seats? that goes for, what, 36-37 large? are we premium yet? in all seriousness i understand your def. of premium, shnak. it's basically what all the magazines dub as the entry-level luxury cars like the 3 series, audi a4, volvo's, etc., but the truth is the market is surely more complicated than that. VW, the car that started this whole thread is the perfect example - is the jetta a regular compact or a premium? based on what? i'm saying the impreza, when properly optioned, should be considered a premium because it offers a level of safety and performance not available in a base civic or other.

L

[mrthompson]

Have fun, lebowski.  Having a discussion with Shnak can be rather 'interesting'.   

[lebowski]

lol, mrthompson, i'll consider myself warned 

L

[Shnak]

um, ok. by that logic how about an Impreza WRX with leather seats? that goes for, what, 36-37 large? are we premium yet? in all seriousness i understand your def. of premium, shnak. it's basically what all the magazines dub as the entry-level luxury cars like the 3 series, audi a4, volvo's, etc., but the truth is the market is surely more complicated than that. VW, the car that started this whole thread is the perfect example - is the jetta a regular compact or a premium? based on what? i'm saying the impreza, when properly optioned, should be considered a premium because it offers a level of safety and performance not available in a base civic or other.

L

Well you seem to forget that the new Civic comes standard with 6 airbags... so the Civic is safer than the Impreza. And two, the new Civic performs quite nice with its new 1.8L engine and its new 5 speed automatic transmission... and the Civic SI offers even more thrills. So you can say that the Impreza has a better drivetrain than the Civic as its AWD system is one of the best in the world, but other than the fact that it is AWD, I certainly don't understand why an Impreza could be considered more upscale than the new Civic, or even the previous Civic for that matter.

[lebowski]

six airbags are great -  but (and you saw this coming  )  i'd rather not have to use any airbags, so i'll take the AWD, a premium feature by my definition, and greater low-end torque and get the hell outta dodge before an accident occurrs. and as zippy as the new Si surely must be, the WRX is, well, 'nuff said. as i mentioned in earlier posts, it is because of the mechanical features and how well-engineered the cars are (leading to their superior reliability and prolonged roadability), essentially the stuff you can't see or touch, that i consider the impreza a premium car. that and the premium pricing, of course.

L

[Shnak]

six airbags are great -  but (and you saw this coming  )  i'd rather not have to use any airbags, so i'll take the AWD, a premium feature by my definition, and greater low-end torque and get the hell outta dodge before an accident occurrs. and as zippy as the new Si surely must be, the WRX is, well, the WRX.

L

Well this discussion is going nowhere... but so anything that has AWD is considered a premium vehicle in you opinion? Aerio, Matrix, old Vitara, etc? Yeah... anything can be considered premium then, uh?

And as nice as AWD is, it really is not realistic to say that having AWD will allow you to escape all accidents... I'd wage that in more than 90% of the cases, there isn't a single thing you could have done to prevent a collision. So passive safety is a must.

What constitutes premium-ness to me is level of engine refinement (smoothness, noise, torque curve), high speed stability, wind noise, interior quality (both materials and design/layout), solid door "thunk" when closing (don't laugh, there is a huge difference between econoboxes and premium vehicles), attention to details (side-blinkers, antenna integrated into windshield or short antenna at the back of the roof, etc.), quality of headlights, quality of sound system.

Take out their AWD system and the Subarus are forgettable and wouldn't stand a chance on the market IMO.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

I don't consider the Impreza a premium car in the traditional sense. Nor the WRX or the Saab 9-2X for that matter.

They are darnright crampy inside IMO, but that's not what strikes it off the premium list for me. Sure, it's built well... but not built out of premium materials. They don't radiate quality - the interior materials aren't up to snuff, the controls don't switch with smoothness, the features are nothing remarkable or ground-breaking. The audio unit isn't spectacular as far as I know. There's few premium features... no HIDs (save for STi, or does that not even have them?), no NAVI.

What you have is something functional and durable. Sure, that's worth something, but it's not 'premium' to me. At least not in the Impreza range. The Legacy I'll let pass and agree has some 'premium mid-size' status to it.  

What is there? Performance. It's a premium on performance. The handling, the stability, the AWD in winter, and the AWD to fire you off the mark in the WRX and STi.

And while I think the NEW Subarus have gotten further into the premium side of things, particularly Legacy and B9 Tribeca, the Imprezas aren't yet there for me.

And while the VWs I believe are further there, they need to combine that with electrical quality that matches the perceived quality. But I believe that is easier to do than the reverse engineering.

Sounds silly but I always equate luxury to a wooden jewelry box. You could get one that's large and holds lots, perfectly cut by machine, hinged and opens fine, and looks otherwise okay and is very practical for the use of storing jewelry. It's practical. By all accounts it serves it's intended purpose well with little fuss. But what makes something premium is the extra care - it IS the hand crafting, the polished finish, the quality of construction, the special metallic hinges or closing mechanism, the quality of padding on the interior to cushion the jewelry... the exclusiveness and first and foremost attention to detail. Okay, that may be going a tad overboard, but that's what does it for me, and how I distinguish.

For me, the interior materials are VERY important when evaluating a car and giving it premium status. I could make something out of Rubbermaid and give it AWD, but that doesn't make it good. Actually, nowadays many cars are built so solid and with such attention to design detail that I believe it IS getting harder to justify paying more for luxury goods and cars... that's why the AWD, exterior and interior colours and selection / personalization, and ever increasing horsepower powerplants are coming back.

The new Civic is a good example. It's a darned good car! Looks great to me inside and out. Interior is ground-breaking and as far as I'm concerned makes the Subaru look like an 80's child. Materials are perfectly fine. Not 'premium', but something had better rope me in via it's power/quietness/interior quality/ride/handling/whatever-else for me to really want anything more. What people buy the Accord for the Civic can do nearly just as well now, so how does someone decide the price jump to an Accord is justified?

Anyhow, getting off track, but 'premium' is hard to quantify and means something different to everyone I think.

[Snowman]

Ha-ha….all the fumes from the sizzling electronics in the German cars must be affected your judgment boys . I love the design quality of the German made cars….but they need to find a way to make them reliable and inexpensive to repair. I will stick with my cheap Japanese cars, thank you very much.

  Geee Ovr…you are starting to sound like Barrie.

[G0dspd]

What's "NAVI" ... I've seen it on Honda Accord models.  Is it a model with GPS navigation only ... or does it include other options ?

[ovr50]

OK, I'll reform pronto - don't want that to happen....

I'll not say another thing about Subaru - ever. 

[lebowski]

shnak, i'm sorry this is going nowhere for you, but if you're still reading:

AWD is a premium feature, as you pay more to obtain it, but what makes the impreza a premium CAR is it's superior AWD system coupled with all the other stuff: it's superior drivetrain, brilliant boxer engine design (only porsche's cars share this design, and they do ok with it), etc.

agreed, passive safety is just as important as active safety, but in bad winter weather AWD goes a long way to bolster a car's active safety - and i would guess it's more often than 10% of the time. i know when i go riding up at Tremblant with my buddy in his WRX, we've had some close calls that AWD definitely pulled in our favour. but for what it's worth, the impreza's passive safety has 5 stars worth of credibility, so far as the NHTSA is concerned.

 i appreciate that the impreza doesn't have that satisfying "thud" of the doors, but that's more to do with the frameless windows than with questionable build quality. incidentally, suby contends that the frameless windows add to body rigidity and outward visibility, but i just like the look of them.

true, the new honda trumps with it's 6 airbags to the impreza's 4 (i'm pretty sure), but that one's a new model and this impreza has been largely unchanged since 2002. i reckon the next impreza will bounce back with 10 airbags, the same robust drivetrain and an interior light show that will put the civic or even a Rush concert to shame. or not, it doesn't matter: LED's and MP3's do not a premium car make.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

What's "NAVI" ... I've seen it on Honda Accord models.  Is it a model with GPS navigation only ... or does it include other options ?

Yeah, just short for for Navigation. Whether it's linked with other features is irrelevant.

Telematics would be the real-time exchange of information to and from the car, such as what OnStar provides, or something like the Acura RL's real time re-routing of your NAVI as it has the potential to communicate with other devices outside your own car to determine where traffic jams are.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

AWD is a premium feature, as you pay more to obtain it, but what makes the impreza a premium CAR is it's superior AWD system coupled with all the other stuff: it's superior drivetrain, brilliant boxer engine design (only porsche's cars share this design, and they do ok with it), etc.

That I will give you. AWD is a premium feature, but the car still isn't premium to me. It's premium priced, but not a premium car. That said, it's of good value b/c it's hard to find the combination of AWD/reliability/versatility at that price range.

The boxer engine is a brilliant design, but it's noisy and I'm not sure it has an appreciable difference in the base Imprezas. Forester yes, but not sure about non WRX Imprezas.

The turbo engines are also a bright spot and the cars are quick. And their vehicles are safe.

Subarus are engineered very well.

[footlong58]

I don't see VW in the same category as Acura, BMW, Infiniti, etc...  By some of the reasoning here, a $45,000 Pontiac Bonnieville is more of a "premium" vehicle than a 323i, because it's a price other premium cars are?

An old AMC Eagle has AWD... Does that make it a "premium" vehicle?

[G0dspd]

I see!  Thanks for the info.

I'm sure there's a market for those navigation systems but I hope they don't become standard in the automotive industry.  Those gadgets are pretty much useless in my book ... I guess that you don't have a choice when you get to a certain level of luxury in cars.