Topic: Why are wagons so unpopular in Canada?

[Ex-airbalancer]

If you watch crossing lines on Netflix , everyone drives a wagon

[EV-Light]

News Flash: CUVs are wagons.

What defines a wagon vs a CUV, ride Height? CUVs are merely moving back to the "normal" ride height of the 20,30,40,50s. For day to day schlepping duties more ride height is better. Speaking as a former sport wagon owner (re-sprung lowered Passat and a Volvo V70R) the concept on paper is more appealing than in the real world. Bent over trying to latch in baby baskets and helping elderly Parents get in and out  is no fun. Add in reduced ground clearance due to winter and deteriorating roads and the decision is a no brainer. A Volvo XC70 is much more practical than a V70. End of story. It is a much easier proposition in a CUV with some height. The market has spoken.

brilliant!

[lebowski]

A Volvo XC70 is much more practical than a V70. End of story. It is a much easier proposition in a CUV with some height. The market has spoken.

Right, end of story, except for the part where the XC70 isn't a CUV, because roof height. Ride height is only one factor. None of the so-called CUV's have a roof height that's reasonable for regularly loading/unloading gear from the roof rack. That's why allroads, Outbacks, and the XC70 remain in a separate, lamentably small class.

[ktm525]

A Volvo XC70 is much more practical than a V70. End of story. It is a much easier proposition in a CUV with some height. The market has spoken.

Right, end of story, except for the part where the XC70 isn't a CUV, because roof height. Ride height is only one factor. None of the so-called CUV's have a roof height that's reasonable for regularly loading/unloading gear from the roof rack. That's why allroads, Outbacks, and the XC70 remain in a separate, lamentably small class.

Great point. The ski box can stay on in the garage while most CUVs cannot clear. I have got away without the ski box by folding the middle second seat on the LR4 and using a ski bag inside. I can carry up to 5 inside and their gear this way. I am a fan of keeping the skis outside though in a box as they don't have ice issues in the morning (snow melts on warm skis and then refreezes). With the Ridgeline the box can just accept my 193 on the diagonal. I added a small heater for the in bed trunk so it can  also handle 5 people and their gear to the hill.

[BritWRX]

CUVs is where the market is headed...I'd fully expect wagons to be dead in a decade or so given the European market is also starting to make the move to CUVs

http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150709/ANE/150639995?template=mobile02&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^ interesting article. Thiugh i wonder if this popularity in Europe of small cuv's isn't an anomaly, and as Europeans go up in size they wouldn't still  continue to favour something like a Fusion wagon, vs. a Ford Explorer or similar.

I think you're right.  Nissan have done really well with their CUVs in the UK and in fact don't offer many vehicles in the traditional "car" segments.  New vehicles are really expensive in Europe though and fuel efficiency is a really hot topic, where 2WD wagons traditionally perform better than AWD CUVs/SUVs.

[BritWRX]

News Flash: CUVs are wagons.

What defines a wagon vs a CUV, ride Height? CUVs are merely moving back to the "normal" ride height of the 20,30,40,50s. For day to day schlepping duties more ride height is better. Speaking as a former sport wagon owner (re-sprung lowered Passat and a Volvo V70R) the concept on paper is more appealing than in the real world. Bent over trying to latch in baby baskets and helping elderly Parents get in and out  is no fun. Add in reduced ground clearance due to winter and deteriorating roads and the decision is a no brainer. A Volvo XC70 is much more practical than a V70. End of story. It is a much easier proposition in a CUV with some height. The market has spoken.

I suppose you have a point but which handles better, is quicker and more fun to drive?  People still buy compact and mid-size cars though, so why not one with a bit more practicality?  In my experience, wagons are typically longer than compact CUVs, so have a longer albeit shallower load area than a CUV but the length is more useful.  There is still a big difference in price between a mid-spec Focus and a mid-spec Escape too (I know that because if there wasn't, I would have bought something like an Escape or similar).  Surely, there is a gap in the market for something more practical than a compact/mid-size but less expensive than a CUV?

[BritWRX]

I laughed at one ad that claimed that wagons have more cargo room than minivans. Don't get me wrong, wagons are fantastic for what they are, but they definitely don't have up to 4,000L in cargo capacity with all the rear seats down.

I'm not disputing that.  A Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna is positively cavernous (not the Grand Caravan so much, with all 3 rows in use at any rate).  How much of that is due to the height though and how often do you load it to the roof and is it safe to do so?  Being sensible, a Mercedes E-Class Wagon, which is just as long probably would probably swallow just as much stuff with the seats folded down.

[lebowski]

Great point. The ski box can stay on in the garage while most CUVs cannot clear. I have got away without the ski box by folding the middle second seat on the LR4 and using a ski bag inside. I can carry up to 5 inside and their gear this way. I am a fan of keeping the skis outside though in a box as they don't have ice issues in the morning (snow melts on warm skis and then refreezes). With the Ridgeline the box can just accept my 193 on the diagonal. I added a small heater for the in bed trunk so it can  also handle 5 people and their gear to the hill.

I'm surprised the Ridgeline's bed/box can accommodate 193's, even on the diagonal. That's pretty cool - makes it a heckuva lot more practical than i thought. That said, though I don't own a ski box, I am convinced a box is by far the safest and most secure way to carry ski gear, even if one could fit all that gear inside.

[lebowski]

News Flash: CUVs are wagons.

What defines a wagon vs a CUV, ride Height? CUVs are merely moving back to the "normal" ride height of the 20,30,40,50s. For day to day schlepping duties more ride height is better. Speaking as a former sport wagon owner (re-sprung lowered Passat and a Volvo V70R) the concept on paper is more appealing than in the real world. Bent over trying to latch in baby baskets and helping elderly Parents get in and out  is no fun. Add in reduced ground clearance due to winter and deteriorating roads and the decision is a no brainer. A Volvo XC70 is much more practical than a V70. End of story. It is a much easier proposition in a CUV with some height. The market has spoken.

I suppose you have a point but which handles better, is quicker and more fun to drive?  People still buy compact and mid-size cars though, so why not one with a bit more practicality?  In my experience, wagons are typically longer than compact CUVs, so have a longer albeit shallower load area than a CUV but the length is more useful.  There is still a big difference in price between a mid-spec Focus and a mid-spec Escape too (I know that because if there wasn't, I would have bought something like an Escape or similar).  Surely, there is a gap in the market for something more practical than a compact/mid-size but less expensive than a CUV?

Good point. I think this just speaks, of course, to different tastes. Some folks, like KTM525 i presume, will place a higher priority on ease of ingress/egress for their infants and/or elderly parents. But I think there are plenty of others who favour a slightly lower ride height for the inherent dynamic advantages.

It also obviously has to do with geography: my home town of Montreal has horrible roads where the higher ground clearance and softer suspension are welcomed. My current city of Vancouver has comparatively glassy roads where a sportier ride is welcomed - just as in Europe, from what I understand, where road quality is markedly better than here.

And I don't mean to exaggerate; we aren't talking about a slammed or "stanced" sports car ride height, we're talking about regular sedan height. 

[BritWRX]

News Flash: CUVs are wagons.

What defines a wagon vs a CUV, ride Height? CUVs are merely moving back to the "normal" ride height of the 20,30,40,50s. For day to day schlepping duties more ride height is better. Speaking as a former sport wagon owner (re-sprung lowered Passat and a Volvo V70R) the concept on paper is more appealing than in the real world. Bent over trying to latch in baby baskets and helping elderly Parents get in and out  is no fun. Add in reduced ground clearance due to winter and deteriorating roads and the decision is a no brainer. A Volvo XC70 is much more practical than a V70. End of story. It is a much easier proposition in a CUV with some height. The market has spoken.

I suppose you have a point but which handles better, is quicker and more fun to drive?  People still buy compact and mid-size cars though, so why not one with a bit more practicality?  In my experience, wagons are typically longer than compact CUVs, so have a longer albeit shallower load area than a CUV but the length is more useful.  There is still a big difference in price between a mid-spec Focus and a mid-spec Escape too (I know that because if there wasn't, I would have bought something like an Escape or similar).  Surely, there is a gap in the market for something more practical than a compact/mid-size but less expensive than a CUV?

Good point. I think this just speaks, of course, to different tastes. Some folks, like KTM525 i presume, will place a higher priority on ease of ingress/egress for their infants and/or elderly parents. But I think there are plenty of others who favour a slightly lower ride height for the inherent dynamic advantages.

It also obviously has to do with geography: my home town of Montreal has horrible roads where the higher ground clearance and softer suspension are welcomed. My current city of Vancouver has comparatively glassy roads where a sportier ride is welcomed - just as in Europe, from what I understand, where road quality is markedly better than here.

And I don't mean to exaggerate; we aren't talking about a slammed or "stanced" sports car ride height, we're talking about regular sedan height.

Horses for courses of course.  The prospect of owning a Focus ST Wagon with a manual shifter if such a thing existed (it does in Europe) excites me far more than owning a Ford Escape Ecoboost but I can see some of the benefits of the Escape.  It would just be a much duller drive but I suspect that I'm in the minority!  Incidentally, the roads in the UK for the most part aren't really less bumpy than here outside the motorway network.  They are narrower and twistier though, which I guess is why I value handling higher than most, as those are the roads I grew up with.

[ktm525]

What is "regular" sedan height? The cars you grew up with (which can be argued are a anomaly) or previous or later generations? Modern CUVs can be hustled through corners and curves at extra legal speeds already. Even my lowly Ridgeline can almost double suggested off ramp speeds, in a family transporter what more do you want?  I learned long ago the only person who enjoys the "sharper handling" of a wagon is the driver, certainly not the passengers (wife and car sick kids rolling around in the rear). A much better solution is a schlepping CUV and a little 2 seater for the warmer months. Done.

[ktm525]

Great point. The ski box can stay on in the garage while most CUVs cannot clear. I have got away without the ski box by folding the middle second seat on the LR4 and using a ski bag inside. I can carry up to 5 inside and their gear this way. I am a fan of keeping the skis outside though in a box as they don't have ice issues in the morning (snow melts on warm skis and then refreezes). With the Ridgeline the box can just accept my 193 on the diagonal. I added a small heater for the in bed trunk so it can  also handle 5 people and their gear to the hill.

I'm surprised the Ridgeline's bed/box can accommodate 193's, even on the diagonal. That's pretty cool - makes it a heckuva lot more practical than i thought. That said, though I don't own a ski box, I am convinced a box is by far the safest and most secure way to carry ski gear, even if one could fit all that gear inside.

Downside to gear boxes is cross winds. In the foothills west of Calgary we can get some nasty gusting which sees cross winds well over 100 km/h. A lightweight car with a gear box is sometimes no fun in these conditions, especially when the roads are a little greasy. When the wind is blowing I always take the Ridgeline over the LR4. Wider track and more squat makes everything much more stable. In these conditions the V70R was supreme but running the ski box was a no no.

When the skis go inside the LR4 they are in a large travel bag which is then secured by a tie down to the cargo floor. They are not going anywhere. When the LR4 gets loaded the gear always gets a spider web net that is secured to the cargo floor. That is why the LR3/LR4 is so heavy, everything is over engineered. I could probably lift the vehicle by the cargo eyelets.    The cargo capacity in the LR4 is much larger than the Volvo V70 even though the overall footprint is smaller.

[lebowski]

Downside to gear boxes is cross winds. In the foothills west of Calgary we can get some nasty gusting which sees cross winds well over 100 km/h. A lightweight car with a gear box is sometimes no fun in these conditions, especially when the roads are a little greasy. When the wind is blowing I always take the Ridgeline over the LR4. Wider track and more squat makes everything much more stable. In these conditions the V70R was supreme but running the ski box was a no no.

When the skis go inside the LR4 they are in a large travel bag which is then secured by a tie down to the cargo floor. They are not going anywhere. When the LR4 gets loaded the gear always gets a spider web net that is secured to the cargo floor. That is why the LR3/LR4 is so heavy, everything is over engineered. I could probably lift the vehicle by the cargo eyelets.    The cargo capacity in the LR4 is much larger than the Volvo V70 even though the overall footprint is smaller.

Good point, i can imagine crosswinds could be brutal. I don’t know much about cargo boxes but wondering if the low-profile ones would be any better.

That’s awesome that you can secure your gear so well. This winter I’m gonna make more of an effort to do that with the gear inside my wagon before I really consider a box.

The LR4 in general sounds awesome for all it can do - i’ve read your positive comments about it in the past. If more of my needs were in line with the LR4 offered, i would definitely consider a used one.

[johngenx]

When the skis go inside the LR4 they are in a large travel bag which is then secured by a tie down to the cargo floor.

I do the same thing when traveling with the skis in the car.  I got these super nice padded ski bags from the ski maker G3 (and super cool since they weren't available to the public, just us pros) and they have these awesome d-rings that actually line up with the cargo hold downs in the Highlander.  I used some carabiners and they're locked down tight.

I know what ya mean about wind.  My parents used to live in Crow's Nest Pass, and wow, driving 22 was treacherous sometimes.  Oddly, the Highlander has more side surface area than the Forester, but is less sensitive to cross winds.  I suspect the extra 700ls is the reason.  The Corolla is fantastic compared to either of those slab-sided things.  Takes some serious winds to move it much despite the low weight.  Aero engineering!!

[Solstice2006]

Cuv's suck!

Remember, it's all about a 6 speed diesel awd wagon.  Not some ugly raised hatchback!

[micha]

Great point. The ski box can stay on in the garage while most CUVs cannot clear. I have got away without the ski box by folding the middle second seat on the LR4 and using a ski bag inside. I can carry up to 5 inside and their gear this way. I am a fan of keeping the skis outside though in a box as they don't have ice issues in the morning (snow melts on warm skis and then refreezes). With the Ridgeline the box can just accept my 193 on the diagonal. I added a small heater for the in bed trunk so it can  also handle 5 people and their gear to the hill.

I'm surprised the Ridgeline's bed/box can accommodate 193's, even on the diagonal. That's pretty cool - makes it a heckuva lot more practical than i thought. That said, though I don't own a ski box, I am convinced a box is by far the safest and most secure way to carry ski gear, even if one could fit all that gear inside.

A "truck" better be able to do that. What's the use of such a large vehicle, if it can't even fit a pair of skis.. My Golf fits my 180s with the rear seats down.

[dkaz]

A "truck" better be able to do that. What's the use of such a large vehicle, if it can't even fit a pair of skis.. My Golf fits my 180s with the rear seats down.

Where do the kids sit? 

[micha]

Cuv's suck!

Remember, it's all about a 6 speed diesel awd wagon.  Not some ugly raised hatchback!

No Manual or Diesel required.

[micha]

A "truck" better be able to do that. What's the use of such a large vehicle, if it can't even fit a pair of skis.. My Golf fits my 180s with the rear seats down.

Where do the kids sit? 

Which kids?? I didn't make any 

[Solstice2006]

Cuv's suck!

Remember, it's all about a 6 speed diesel awd wagon.  Not some ugly raised hatchback!

No Manual or Diesel required.

That's right, I wouldn't pay for a VW diesel now!  Idiots!