Author Topic: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...  (Read 4223 times)

Offline johngenx

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Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« on: May 23, 2016, 11:49:27 pm »
We've been away on a road trip since Thursday morning.  We drove to the trailhead for Lake O'Hara in the morning, backpacked up, and came out Saturday afternoon.  Then we headed to Kamloops for two nights.  We had twelve people in total, one group going to a softball tournament in Kamloops, the other a soccer tournament also in Kamloops.  Our little family stayed up at the ski hill to check out summer activities there.  Since we had a good sized group going to three different spots in Kamloops, we took three vehicles.

The first is our trusty 2004 Highlander, now showing 270K on the odo.  Second was a 2004 4Runner V-8 model with 330K, and lastly the newest member of the group, a 2015 Forester XT.  We swapped drivers occasionally for fun.

My observations...

1. The two old Toyotas feel great considering their age and mileage.  Both feel and drive tight and strong.  The 4.7L V-8 in the 4Runner wouldn't have been my choice, but the SUV is very nice to drive with it.

2. The Forester is bigger than mine, much larger in the rear seat.  That said, it is sized a class smaller than even the older Highlander and 4Runner, and interior space wise, it's noticeable jumping back and forth between the vehicles.

3. The Forester is about the same power/weight ratio as the Highlander, and during two lane passing and accelerating from rest stops, the two were dead even.  The 4Runner has more power than the others, but a lot more weight to pull, and during passing it would get left a little behind the other two.

4. The Forester was the most fun by far on twisty roads - low center of gravity and tight suspension won the day.  On the straight drone from Hinton to Edmonton, the Highlander was the comfiest.  The 4Runner was a mixed bag - not as isolated on the straight roads and the least at home in the bends.  That would all change if we ventured at all off-road though.

5. Fuel economy was nearly a wash between the Highlander and Forester.  On the straight and level sections, the Forester had a clear advantage, but that went away on the two lane roads thanks to us driving quite quickly and doing a lot of passing.  The turbo engine loved the transmission and made passing easy and fun, but if you spend lots of time on the boost, you're sucking fuel.  The Highlander usually records 8.5-9.0 on the highway - this trip was closer to 10.0, and the Forester right behind it at 9.5.

The poor 4Runner drank gas like it owned oil company stocks.  With our aggressive driving it was recording 14.0L/100km on the highway.  The V-8 was wonderful on the big hills, barely even needing a downshift, but the relatively large throttle opening allowed a lot of fuel into the big engine.  I was passing a pair of semis and at 150km/h I could swear that I could see the fuel gauge dropping.

6. The 4Runner didn't notice the people and gear on board at all.  It sat exactly the same, drove the same, and even with the AC on, climbed any hill at whatever speed you wanted.  We had a lighter load in the Highlander, so hard to compare, but it too felt no different regardless of people/gear.  The Forester's driveline also performed pretty much the same, unless you were out of boost.  Fully loaded the Forester would hesitate for a nanosecond when a hill came up, and then the instant the engine made boost, presto!  The Forester's rear end drooped a little with four people and full of gear.  Didn't seem to affect the handling though.

The Forester sure is a nice package - a huge step up from previous models - interior is much nicer, engine/trans combo is the best ever (save perhaps for the turbo/manual from the old days) and overall build quality feels un-Subaru - okay it only had 8000km on it, but still, felt great.  It's still a little noisier than the other two despite their AT tires - but to be fair the OE tires on the Scoob didn't drone like the AT tires on the HL and 4R, but they did emit a high pitch whine that was really annoying at some speeds.

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2016, 07:38:00 am »
Great write up :thumbup:

Offline Jaeger

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2016, 07:53:30 am »
5. Fuel economy was nearly a wash between the Highlander and Forester.  On the straight and level sections, the Forester had a clear advantage, but that went away on the two lane roads thanks to us driving quite quickly and doing a lot of passing.  The turbo engine loved the transmission and made passing easy and fun, but if you spend lots of time on the boost, you're sucking fuel.  The Highlander usually records 8.5-9.0 on the highway - this trip was closer to 10.0, and the Forester right behind it at 9.5.

That sums up both the truth and the myth of improved fuel economy with a turbo over a larger normally aspirated engine.

Good info throughout - thanks!
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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2016, 11:46:14 am »
Nice compare and contrast.  :thumbup:

Seeing the title, the first thing I thought:



 ;D
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Offline Fobroader

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2016, 11:47:34 am »
Great review John!!!
Lighten up Francis.....

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2016, 12:28:50 pm »
Nice write up!!! 

I'd be getting the same mileage as the 4Runner with my Wrangler... and would be happy getting that!!  :rofl:
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Offline Allen

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2016, 02:36:07 pm »
nice review..... what no Tesla :rofl2:

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2016, 05:21:17 pm »
nice review..... what no Tesla :rofl2:

We all know that the Tesla would fit all 12 people + their gear while passing every single car on the road and never have to stop.

Offline ktm525

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2016, 06:15:21 pm »
Good review. I was close to you on the weekend (Salmon Arm). FWIW the LR4 managed 12.5L/100km with the usual high speed truck passing in the passing lanes. Early 2000's V8s were not great on fuel.. Even by the end of the decade manufacturers had begun to clean up their act. Look at the Land Rover. Heavier by at least 1000lbs, full time AWD. 5.0L vs 4.7L and I assume a little less aerodynamic and making 375 HP vs whatever the Toyota was making (230 HP?) and a smidgen better fuel economy. DI for the win (until the carbon builds up.  ;)). 

Offline wing

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2016, 06:31:18 pm »
nice review..... what no Tesla :rofl2:

We all know that the Tesla would fit all 12 people + their gear while passing every single car on the road and never have to stop.
Exactly.   Everyone driving the wrong car.   Good stuff!

Offline johngenx

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2016, 06:58:13 pm »
The 4.7L V-8 from that era only made 235hp (only 5 more than the V-6 in my Highlander!) but it did make decent torque at 320 lbs/ft - compared to the 242 lbs/ft of the smaller V-6.

One nice thing (depending on your outlook) is that particular engine is one of only a few iron block V-8s Toyota made.  It's considered pretty much problem-free and incredibly durable.  But, yeah, the 2002-2004 models didn't have VVT-i or anything, and so power is just okay and fuel economy is not great.  From 2005 they added VVT-i and some other changes to the management system and things improved.  Heck, the 5.7L engines in the LX make more power and significantly better economy.  That said, the old 4.7L will easily go 500K if you change the oil a few times a year.

Offline ktm525

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2016, 11:25:03 pm »
I always had a soft spot for that era Tundra with the "simple" 4.7. I figured they would be bullet proof.


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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2016, 02:52:34 pm »
5. Fuel economy was nearly a wash between the Highlander and Forester.  On the straight and level sections, the Forester had a clear advantage, but that went away on the two lane roads thanks to us driving quite quickly and doing a lot of passing.  The turbo engine loved the transmission and made passing easy and fun, but if you spend lots of time on the boost, you're sucking fuel.  The Highlander usually records 8.5-9.0 on the highway - this trip was closer to 10.0, and the Forester right behind it at 9.5.

That sums up both the truth and the myth of improved fuel economy with a turbo over a larger normally aspirated engine.

Good info throughout - thanks!
Plus the XT having premium gas I assume so it is more expensive to drive.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Twelve people, three SUVs, five days...
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2016, 06:26:04 pm »
Yeah, with the Premium premium creeping higher and higher it's starting to make a real difference in operating costs.

The CVT in the Subaru is fantastic, btw. Nothing at all like the coarse POS I drove in the first Outback that came with it. Smooth and seamless.

The Forester still feels like their boxer fours -- more coarse than others V-6 offerings, but the newest one feels less agricultural than the old 2.5 engines. Revs up nicely and the turbo lag is minimal. The old 2.0L turbo back from the old WRX was brutal. Not so the new one.

If you drive the Forester with traffic I see it doing better fuel economy wise than the old Highlander. The issue with the Subaru is driving it quickly. It seems to lose it's small engine advantage very quickly when you exploit the turbo.

And what's the point if having the XT over the aspro if you don't get into boost?  The new turbo is way too nice to granny-drive!

As for the interior, Subaru sure is on the right track. A couple if nits to pick seeing as the car was $40K. The carpet felt low rent compared to the plush stuff in the Toyotas. Some of the switch gear could be a little smoother. The throttle pedal doesn't need short throw - it's got lots of power. The longer travel of the other cars made driving smooth a little easier.

But compared to older Scoobs, that's one short list!


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