Author Topic: Fiat Chrysler recalls  (Read 24095 times)

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2016, 09:41:41 am »
while that is one way of looking at it, i see a change like this being them taking a chance on something they think is better.

are/were they right? no, i don't think so... but i don't think they should be held accountable for peoples stupidity when dealing with the companies attempts to make things better.

do people with ram trucks get to stomp there feet because they put gas in their diesel pick-up? i mean.... it's always been gas prior...

do people who pump the brake on their abs equipped car have a leg to stand on if they don't stop in time at an intersection?... their last car (and all those before it) had standard braking, and driver's ed said to pump...

this system was supposed to look cleaner, feel different (and better), use less parts and be more reliable... their thoughts were in the right place... they just didn't get enough real world people to test it to tell them it's inherent flaw... people don't like change.

I don't see any evidence whatsoever that this shifter was "better" in any way.  The traditional shifter has worked flawlessly...forever.

I mean...I can't imagine anyone carping about wanting a redesign of old shifters..for whatever reason.

Sometimes changing something merely for the sake of change isn't good enough reason to do it.  I think that's the case here.

+1. I feel the same about steering wheel mounted cruise control button. The traditional column stalk is so much more convenient. You just remember which directions it needs to be moved in order to engage and cancel the cruise and increase or decrease speed. No need to look at the wheel every time to find which button to push.
These things are often done for marketing/sales reasons, because you know, "new and improved" is the mantra. Too bad for consumers that new does not always equals improved.

chrysler had used steering mounted controls for a long time.. they only deviated to the stalk in the daimler days, and we had a lot of people complain. i actually hate the stalk ones... the wheel makes so much sense to me, but it's what i'm used to... i can see the button, know what it does and press it... pretty easy.

and rocket, i mentioned their reasoning in that last little bit. there really were some advantages. but like you said... they were advantages that weren't needed.

as (people say) henry ford said, "if i asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses". innovation doesn't always need a reason. you see where something can be improved and try it.

and as a guy who talks to people with these shifters often, i don't hear them complain... they all get used to it. it's just a learning curve(that i don't understand why it takes so long). people on a test drive, in their first week, or people sitting at their computers are the ones who complain about it. the people who own it tend to like that they have something different.
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Offline mlin32

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2016, 12:27:04 pm »
Well, the electronic shifters allow more room for cupholders and storage cubbies for ever-larger electronic handheld devices.......isn't that what people care about thesedays ?  ::)

Like others said, it's just a slight learning curve. When I drove a NB Mazda MX-5 a couple weeks ago, I kept putting it into 1st instead of Reverse ("oh sh*t I'm going forward"). I'm used to, and learned manual with R being left of 1st gear. Took awhile to get accustomed to, like the Renault Clio I drove last year, but I just adapt. Electronic shifters are the same way- read the book, double check gear position, set the handbrake.
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Offline neil

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2016, 01:13:49 am »
Chrysler used cruise on the stalk long before the daimler days, my Ramcharger has it on the Stalk. As did pretty much every Chryco through the 70's and 80's, and I prefer it there over on the wheel with every other button. It's no look intuitive.

Offline ThePointblank

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2016, 02:05:53 am »
The issue is that FCA didn't properly consider the human aspect when it came to designing and approving the shifter.

Here's the issue: the shifter that is being discussed here is not user intuitive and runs counter to practically every other shifter design on the market. In order to send the vehicle into park, the driver must push the monoshifter forwards until it selects park.

There is no feedback to the driver except on a display to tell the driver that the gear selector has been pushed into park, and it is very easy for someone who's in a hurry to put the vehicle into neutral or reverse instead of park if they didn't push the monoshifter forwards long enough.

That's fine, but the reason why FCA has been singled out by the NHTSA and is now conducting a recall is because unlike every other manufacturer that is using the same transmission and shifter design, FCA did not implement a fail safe to ensure that in the event of a failure to select park, and the occupant of the vehicle gets out or turns off the engine, the vehicle does not roll away. Simply having the vehicle scream warnings at the driver is NOT a fail safe; there are tons of stories of people ignoring various warning lights or noises in cars regardless.

I spent some time when I was in college as part of my graduation requirements in an engineering ethics class ( it was the only ethics course that had space during that semester). From the start, the prof reminded everyone that when designing something that has the potential to cause harm to people or property, in the event of a specific type of failure, the device should respond or results in a way that will cause no harm, or at least minimizes harm, to other property or to people. For example, an elevator design should automatically apply emergency brakes if the elevator cable snaps. A train equipped with an air brake should apply the brakes in the event of a leak in the brake system. It seems that the FCA engineers that implemented the monoshifter forgot this lesson.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 02:11:33 am by ThePointblank »

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2016, 04:55:19 pm »
again, i want to say for the record, i don't like the way it shifts... i don't think it's a big deal, but i do agree it's goofy.... BUT

your examples for the harm are if a failure happens... not if user error happens. someone being in a rush is not a failure... well.. kind of... but not failure of the car, failure of the person. this is just something that is different...

and neil, that is an agree to disagree point i think! i HATE the stalk cruise... i grew up driving cars from chrysler in the 90's and they all had buttons... they worked great and i could see what they meant. then in about 2005 they switched back to the stick. how is "push the stick in, then flick it down" intuitive for turning on cruise?, "oop.. guy in front of me.. i need to cancel it... better pull the stick towards me"... i found it so un-intuitive(is that a word?)! i think you may have been used to it, so it worked, but that is a case of it's where it fit... not that it was intuitive. but people get used to things and eventually think familiarity=intuitive.

Offline pi314

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2016, 10:43:47 pm »
I really like the stalk cruise. The Caravan I drove had a stalk and it behaved the same way the Toyota stalk does.

Offline neil

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2016, 11:50:38 pm »
American stalk cruise, not the stupid daimler one. GM's and Chrysler were basically the same, push in the slider to engage the cruise, hold the slider to slow down, tap the end of the stick to speed up. No need to look down and see the separate on button, or try not to engage voice commands or trip/radio features.

Offline ThePointblank

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2016, 01:33:57 am »
again, i want to say for the record, i don't like the way it shifts... i don't think it's a big deal, but i do agree it's goofy.... BUT

your examples for the harm are if a failure happens... not if user error happens. someone being in a rush is not a failure... well.. kind of... but not failure of the car, failure of the person. this is just something that is different...

A fail-safe is meant to be a means to protect against failure, from both operator error, and mechanical faults. For example, a dead-man switch in a train is there to stop a train from running away if the driver falls asleep, gets distracted or is incapacitated.

It is very much a headscratcher when other companies that have implemented electronic shifters or monopod shifters have implemented them in a way that it is impossible to make a mistake to not put the vehicle into park (ie. the Prius has a separate button you need to hit to park the vehicle), or have implemented a system that if the vehicle is not in park, but the door is opened, the vehicle goes into park. It's very much a issue with how Chrysler considered the human factors considering that other car makers with the exact same transmission and shifter have implemented a fail safe, and Chrysler didn't see the same need.

Offline neil

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2016, 01:51:43 am »
Sure, but what about a regular standard, manual transmission?   There are no failsafes for those other than common sense. If you don't know how to operate any vehicle safely, why is the onus on the manufacturer?

If i leave a manual transmission car in neutral and don't set the parking brake, and it rolls and kills someone, assuming it's not me, is it fair to assume liability to the mfgr for my stupidity? I don't see a stretch from that to this system.

Offline pi314

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2016, 07:40:52 am »
But manual transmissions are well, standardized. Even dog leg transmission don't exist today.

It's not liKe the gearshift is some knob located on the dash

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2016, 08:15:02 am »
But manual transmissions are well, standardized.

5, 6 7 speeds. Reverse at the top left, top right, bottom right.

Ya, pretty standard.

Offline neil

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2016, 09:53:26 am »
Lift the ring, push it down.....

Offline Fobroader

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2016, 10:35:36 am »
But manual transmissions are well, standardized. Even dog leg transmission don't exist today.

It's not liKe the gearshift is some knob located on the dash

Uhhh...no. The 'Muricans love putting reverse where 6 spd is supposed to go.  ;D
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Offline mlin32

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2016, 10:47:33 am »
Reverse should be to the left of 1st. Up and left. Simple and intuitive, just like those manual-shifting modes for automatics where you push up to downshift, and pull back to upshift.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2016, 10:49:05 am »
Most of my cars have been manuals, so I've always been in the habit of using the parking brake, even when driving an automatic. This also keeps the parking brake mechanism from seizing up from disuse.

I think a light on the dash should be sufficient to warn the driver that it's not in park.
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Offline Fobroader

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2016, 10:50:56 am »
Most of my cars have been manuals, so I've always been in the habit of using the parking brake, even when driving an automatic. This also keeps the parking brake mechanism from seizing up from disuse.

I think a light on the dash should be sufficient to warn the driver that it's not in park.

You mean like a large display telling you its not in park and the fact the display is showing you its not in park??  ;D

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2016, 11:39:28 am »
Most of my cars have been manuals, so I've always been in the habit of using the parking brake, even when driving an automatic. This also keeps the parking brake mechanism from seizing up from disuse.

I think a light on the dash should be sufficient to warn the driver that it's not in park.

You mean like a large display telling you its not in park and the fact the display is showing you its not in park??  ;D




 ;D

The indicating needles on the old PRNDLs used to slip and get out of line, especially on the column shifters. That apparently would cause an automotive apocalypse these days.

Offline Gurgie

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2016, 01:22:58 pm »
Most of my cars have been manuals, so I've always been in the habit of using the parking brake, even when driving an automatic. This also keeps the parking brake mechanism from seizing up from disuse.

I think a light on the dash should be sufficient to warn the driver that it's not in park.

You mean like a large display telling you its not in park and the fact the display is showing you its not in park??  ;D




 ;D

The indicating needles on the old PRNDLs used to slip and get out of line, especially on the column shifters. That apparently would cause an automotive apocalypse these days.

 :rofl:   :rofl:  SOOOOOOOO true!!!  You just went by feel!!

I've been living with this "problem" shifter for almost 2 weeks now & have had no issues with it, seems just as easy to use as a normal one would be.  And like Sir O, I always use the parking brake... automatic or manual... have been for close to 30yrs now  :o
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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2016, 02:14:56 pm »
^Is yours an electric brake? I kinda miss the "zzzzzzzzzHNURK" of the electric parking brake on the Outback. It would get looks in the parking lot.  ;D

Offline Gurgie

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Re: Fiat Chrysler recalls
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2016, 02:36:44 pm »
^Is yours an electric brake? I kinda miss the "zzzzzzzzzHNURK" of the electric parking brake on the Outback. It would get looks in the parking lot.  ;D

Nope, set it with my left foot every time   ;D  Only difference between this & what I used 30yrs ago was now you press on it to release it, no more pulling the handle under the dash to release the parking brake  :rofl2: