Topic: Upside Down Major

[Cord]

^^ Life, disability.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Today I witnessed an attempt to trade in a four day old 2016 Focus ST with NWT plates. The reason? Apparently the middle-aged woman that bought it didn't think it would work well for the moose hunting that she enjoyed. On that point, I wholeheartedly agreed.

The attempt to purchase a used truck didn't go too well, what with her being $25,000 upside-down and all. How, you ask? Well, $11,000 upside-down on the old truck she traded in, plus $7500 in warranties and insurance, plus taxes, plus the wholesale depreciation on the ST.

It turned out that the car hadn't even been registered yet. So we advised her to go back to the selling dealer to try to have them unwind the deal.

Isn't there something where you get 30 days to return the vehicle or something odd like that?  I was under the impression that was a thing....  Maybe it's just something that some dealers offer.  Not sure.

[neil]

Insurance and warranty are fully rebate able:  20 day free look.

[tooscoops]

some dealers do a return... but it's not actually free, and you still have to buy a vehicle from them...

this mornings was for a future post in here... bought a 6900 used car... bought 8600 worth of stuff in the box. for 15500 at used rates, he would have been cheaper to just buy a new car. you know it's bad when the business manager doesn't really want the deal to go through...

[carcrazed]

some dealers do a return... but it's not actually free, and you still have to buy a vehicle from them...

this mornings was for a future post in here... bought a 6900 used car... bought 8600 worth of stuff in the box. for 15500 at used rates, he would have been cheaper to just buy a new car. you know it's bad when the business manager doesn't really want the deal to go through...

I can't fathom what they were taught when growing up... 

[safristi]

    they HAVE NOT GROWN UP......................still mentally in Grade 5 whateffer....where is MY SAF SPACE from micro brained idiots..   "chalk " it up to the sidewalk

[Jaeger]

some dealers do a return... but it's not actually free, and you still have to buy a vehicle from them...

this mornings was for a future post in here... bought a 6900 used car... bought 8600 worth of stuff in the box. for 15500 at used rates, he would have been cheaper to just buy a new car. you know it's bad when the business manager doesn't really want the deal to go through...

"stuff in the box" means what?

[HeliDriver]

After you think you're done negotiating on the car, "the box" is that room you're sent to where the finance guy tries to sell you a bunch of extra stuff.

[Triple Bob]

some dealers do a return... but it's not actually free, and you still have to buy a vehicle from them...

this mornings was for a future post in here... bought a 6900 used car... bought 8600 worth of stuff in the box. for 15500 at used rates, he would have been cheaper to just buy a new car. you know it's bad when the business manager doesn't really want the deal to go through...

That's terrible.  It's not that the customer is stupid, sometimes the sales techniques are pretty convincing to someone who is open to suggestion, especially on extended warranties.  I'd say the finance person at the dealership is equally to blame here.

[neil]

some dealers do a return... but it's not actually free, and you still have to buy a vehicle from them...

this mornings was for a future post in here... bought a 6900 used car... bought 8600 worth of stuff in the box. for 15500 at used rates, he would have been cheaper to just buy a new car. you know it's bad when the business manager doesn't really want the deal to go through...

That's terrible.  It's not that the customer is stupid, sometimes the sales techniques are pretty convincing to someone who is open to suggestion, especially on extended warranties.  I'd say the finance person at the dealership is equally to blame here.

That person is doing what he does to make a living, and if doesn't do it, someone else will.  No one puts a gun to their heads.

[Jaeger]

After you think you're done negotiating on the car, "the box" is that room you're sent to where the finance guy tries to sell you a bunch of extra stuff.

Oh. I've never spent money there on anything but window tint and 3m. If you are spending more on extras than you are on the car you have officially lost your freaking mind.

[micha]

After you think you're done negotiating on the car, "the box" is that room you're sent to where the finance guy tries to sell you a bunch of extra stuff.

Oh. I've never spent money there on anything but window tint and 3m. If you are spending more on extras than you are on the car you have officially lost your freaking mind.

And even window tint and 3m can be a terrible deal.. Dealer tried to charge me $3k just for 3m on my R. I paid a lot less to get that done. And then he tried to sell me an extended warranty using FGC arguments. IIRC they wanted $5k for that.. I could have easily spend $10k+ in the box.

[johngenx]

The "box" sales pressure has been upped since dealers have had their margins slashed by makers.  It's coming to the point where dealers won't make any money on actually selling you the car, only on the crap and on service.

It seems to me that the manufacturers are really taking it to the customers.  They can advertise prices that are thousands lower than the actual price (dealers can't do that) and then leave it up to dealers to explain it all to the customer. Then the dealer makes so little on the transaction that they then have to sell a bunch of useless garbage to the customer.  Sorry, the air from the hose is 78% nitrogen already and pretty much no road going auto needs 100% especially a Corolla or other economy car.

But, can dealers drop those ridiculous products?  Nope.  A friend of mine was a Mazda dealer owner and retired for health reasons, but he also hated where the industry was going. He enjoyed selling cars, working on the floor himself right up until retirement.  The last time I talked to him when he was still working he said "the writing is on the wall, we won't be selling cars soon, we'll be the accessory sales branch for the manufacturers."

[neil]

The "box" sales pressure has been upped since dealers have had their margins slashed by makers.  It's coming to the point where dealers won't make any money on actually selling you the car, only on the crap and on service.

It seems to me that the manufacturers are really taking it to the customers.  They can advertise prices that are thousands lower than the actual price (dealers can't do that) and then leave it up to dealers to explain it all to the customer. Then the dealer makes so little on the transaction that they then have to sell a bunch of useless garbage to the customer.  Sorry, the air from the hose is 78% nitrogen already and pretty much no road going auto needs 100% especially a Corolla or other economy car.

But, can dealers drop those ridiculous products?  Nope.  A friend of mine was a Mazda dealer owner and retired for health reasons, but he also hated where the industry was going. He enjoyed selling cars, working on the floor himself right up until retirement.  The last time I talked to him when he was still working he said "the writing is on the wall, we won't be selling cars soon, we'll be the accessory sales branch for the manufacturers."

I can't really disagree with any of that.  If a dealer was going to simply sell new cars he would be broke.  When I was at a Kia store in the late '00's, we basically had three revenue streams, that were almost equal 3 way splits of gross.  New/used: of which 70% of profit was on the used.  Business office, and fixed ops: parts/service.   

Business managers (box operators) are closely scrutinized and expected to maintain dollar averages and product penetration.   A new car manager really has to worry only about volume, which provides the opportunities for the Box.

I will never work for a new franchise again, well never is a long time, but still quite enjoy doing the finance for the independent used car market.  I only really have to focus on warranty and insurance, and frankly they are products I truly believe in and can see the benefit for my clients.  The day I have to ram a 50% penetration on overpriced protection products again is a day i'll say it's time to go.

[Jaeger]

After you think you're done negotiating on the car, "the box" is that room you're sent to where the finance guy tries to sell you a bunch of extra stuff.

Oh. I've never spent money there on anything but window tint and 3m. If you are spending more on extras than you are on the car you have officially lost your freaking mind.

And even window tint and 3m can be a terrible deal.. Dealer tried to charge me $3k just for 3m on my R. I paid a lot less to get that done. And then he tried to sell me an extended warranty using FGC arguments. IIRC they wanted $5k for that.. I could have easily spend $10k+ in the box.

FFS, really?  I have always got what I feel are comparable prices to aftermarket installers - and I like the fact that there is just one place responsible for it.  I ALWAYS get a better price that what they initially quote but I have never heard anything close to $3k.

[tooscoops]

some dealers do a return... but it's not actually free, and you still have to buy a vehicle from them...

this mornings was for a future post in here... bought a 6900 used car... bought 8600 worth of stuff in the box. for 15500 at used rates, he would have been cheaper to just buy a new car. you know it's bad when the business manager doesn't really want the deal to go through...

That's terrible.  It's not that the customer is stupid, sometimes the sales techniques are pretty convincing to someone who is open to suggestion, especially on extended warranties.  I'd say the finance person at the dealership is equally to blame here.

oh, she used no technique... you get a turnover on a 5 year old, low priced, off-make car... all you do is mention warranty and rust and hope you get a finance reserve for the small loan.... but our system automatically prints a "menu" and he just pointed to the "fully protected" column and side, "i want that"... as i said, she didn't want it to go through... she told him he needed a parental co-signer even though she could have pushed it through... she wanted mom and dad to know and offer their input...

and i agree with you neil... i'm actually quite happy that my store doesn't tempt me with big kick-backs from the business office... after all, i am a dad with my wife not really working, so i would hate to get too tempted to sell my soul. now i can just be totally honest and it won't really make me feel like i'm a bad person *or* provider!

oh, and as for my stance... i think dealers should offer any product, even nitro.... BUT should have a limit on profit margin. when you are making 250% profit on something, it doesn't matter what it is, that is not a good deal.... whereas a 15% mark-up... if you choose something, at least you aren't being hosed too bad (and CHOOSE being a key word)

[Jaeger]

I have to say I didn't get a lot of box pressure from Hyundai on either purchase.  Sure, they offered extended warranties and paint sealant / rustproofing but I got no pressure when I politely declined.

My approach is to say I'm tapped out at the purchase price but will probably get tint and 3m done by a third party.  They get pretty motivated to sell me something - anything - extra and I always get a good quote for doing both.  Did that for my Altima, Sonata and now the Genesis.  Really don't need much else.

[tooscoops]

yeah, the box makes more money on items that you can't get elsewhere (or hard to get at least)... tint, upgrades to stereos, mats, 3m... that stuff never gets offered in our shop, but if they ask, not a problem.

[micha]

After you think you're done negotiating on the car, "the box" is that room you're sent to where the finance guy tries to sell you a bunch of extra stuff.

Oh. I've never spent money there on anything but window tint and 3m. If you are spending more on extras than you are on the car you have officially lost your freaking mind.

And even window tint and 3m can be a terrible deal.. Dealer tried to charge me $3k just for 3m on my R. I paid a lot less to get that done. And then he tried to sell me an extended warranty using FGC arguments. IIRC they wanted $5k for that.. I could have easily spend $10k+ in the box.

FFS, really?  I have always got what I feel are comparable prices to aftermarket installers - and I like the fact that there is just one place responsible for it.  I ALWAYS get a better price that what they initially quote but I have never heard anything close to $3k.

I was very surprised too.. I expected something in the $500-$800 range. Haven't seen any higher than that. He said something about it being a new model and 3m not offering pre-cut film yet. So it has to be custom cut just for me.. Hard to believe when the R has been out for years in other countries. Plus, the guy who did the 3m was okay with ~$500.

[carcrazed]

  They better wrap the whole car for 3 grand.