Author Topic: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes  (Read 18773 times)

Offline Autos_Editor

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Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« on: July 05, 2011, 04:02:22 am »


In a feisty discussion during the CAA's first Changing Lanes Conference in Vancouver, cyclists and motorists faced off about sharing the road.

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Offline tpl

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2011, 05:45:50 am »
"But there certainly were surprises from the outspoken Mr. Laturnus. Among many impassioned comments, his wishful thought that every motorist in the world should have to spend a week on a bike before they can get their licence sounded good."

Back in the day many kids including me spent YEARS, age 11 or so to age 17, riding a bike in all kinds of traffic and weather because:
The family car was never used for kid transportation...you rode, walked or spent precious allowance on bus fare, end of story.
School was too far to walk and in my case anyway, too inconvenient to get a bus ( no school buses in England in those days)
The bike represented the same freedom as (supposedly if movies are to be believed ) the car did for NA teens. Cars in the UK were too expensive for teenagers and it took a year to get a licence so you'd be 18 before you could drive on your own.  No shop teacher teaching kids to drive there, parent, older sibling or drivers ed.
Lastly, this modern paranoia about letting kids do stuff on their own ( as long as they were home for meals  ;D  ) did not exist.

So cycling was it.  I think that left at least some of my generation with a better attitude to driving around cyclists.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline Great_Big_Abyss

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2011, 03:23:16 pm »
I'm a motorist and a cyclist at the same time.  One of my jobs is a bike mechanic at a local bike shop.  I interact with a lot of 'hardcore' cyclists (critical mass types), and even commute on my bike a few times a week.  At the same time I drive to my 'other' job every day as it is a little too far to cycle comfortably every day.

My point is, I see both sides of the fence.  When I'm in my car, I see good cyclists and bad cyclists.  The bad cyclists :censor: me off as much as they do other motorists.  But I always respect cyclists, change lanes when passing them (or give them a wide berth) and I'm always aware of them when making turns or slowing down.

When I'm on my bike, I follow the rules of the road and am a 'good' cyclist.  That being said, I see a lot of bad drivers out there and have almost been taken out a few times, even when I'm riding defensively.

I'd have to say that here in Winnipeg, the problem seems to be blown out of proportion.  Most cyclists are responsible and generally follow the rules of the road (by cyclists, I mean serious riders...not the idiots on the sidewalks).  The same is true of most motorists.  They usually respect my space and give me a wide berth.  That being said, it is a lot easier to notice the bad drivers when you're on a bike than it is to notice the bad cyclists when you're in a car.

Offline chrischasescars

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2011, 03:35:49 pm »
"But there certainly were surprises from the outspoken Mr. Laturnus. Among many impassioned comments, his wishful thought that every motorist in the world should have to spend a week on a bike before they can get their licence sounded good."

Back in the day many kids including me spent YEARS, age 11 or so to age 17, riding a bike in all kinds of traffic and weather because:
The family car was never used for kid transportation...you rode, walked or spent precious allowance on bus fare, end of story.
School was too far to walk and in my case anyway, too inconvenient to get a bus ( no school buses in England in those days)
The bike represented the same freedom as (supposedly if movies are to be believed ) the car did for NA teens. Cars in the UK were too expensive for teenagers and it took a year to get a licence so you'd be 18 before you could drive on your own.  No shop teacher teaching kids to drive there, parent, older sibling or drivers ed.
Lastly, this modern paranoia about letting kids do stuff on their own ( as long as they were home for meals  ;D  ) did not exist.

So cycling was it.  I think that left at least some of my generation with a better attitude to driving around cyclists.

When I was a kid, I spent almost every day on my bike in the summer. I hardly ride any more, but I still respect cyclists, some more than others, depending on how respectful they are of the rules of the road and other traffic.
I used to work here.

CatsEye68

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2011, 05:46:39 pm »
I will be happy to "share the road" with cyclists - once their cycles are registered and plated and appropriate fees paid, and once they agree to follow the rules of the road. No zipping in and out of traffic, using crosswalks to make illegal turns, cutting in front of queues, etc. Such behavior is far too common. "Saving the planet" does not exempt such folks from basic driving etiquette and traffic rules.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2011, 05:47:22 pm »
I will be happy to "share the road" with cyclists - once their cycles are registered and plated and appropriate fees paid, and once they agree to follow the rules of the road. No zipping in and out of traffic, using crosswalks to make illegal turns, cutting in front of queues, etc. Such behavior is far too common. "Saving the planet" does not exempt such folks from basic driving etiquette and traffic rules.


No kidding.....
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Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2011, 08:40:37 pm »
School was too far to walk and in my case anyway, too inconvenient to get a bus ( no school buses in England in those days)

Was it uphill both ways with the sun in your eyes morning and afternoon?   :rofl:

I will be happy to "share the road" with cyclists - once their cycles are registered and plated and appropriate fees paid, and once they agree to follow the rules of the road. No zipping in and out of traffic, using crosswalks to make illegal turns, cutting in front of queues, etc. Such behavior is far too common. "Saving the planet" does not exempt such folks from basic driving etiquette and traffic rules.

The ony problem is that licencing doesn't make people better - there are 'select members of the motorcycle community' that split lanes, bob in and out, etc etc.   

Taking down the number is useless, just like it is now with a car (angry letter to owner of plate, not the rider/driver at the time from popo).   :-\

Fortune favours the bold!

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2011, 09:43:16 pm »
I will be happy to "share the road" with cyclists - once their cycles are registered and plated and appropriate fees paid, and once they agree to follow the rules of the road. No zipping in and out of traffic, using crosswalks to make illegal turns, cutting in front of queues, etc. Such behavior is far too common. "Saving the planet" does not exempt such folks from basic driving etiquette and traffic rules.

CatyEye68, I couldn't have said it better. My feelings exactly.

I think the courier cyclists are responsible for most of the zipping in and out traffic, using crosswalks etc. As a pedestrian, I almost got ran over by one of these couriers who decided that people in the crosswalk don't have the right of way. To a much lesser extent do I see this happen with the "commuter" and "recreational" cyclists.

Making blanket statements is very easy.

I think that soccer moms are the worse for buzzing cyclist while they sip their lattes and talking on the phone.

I think drivers are in too much of a rush and will nearly run you over while crossing the street/corner.

I think drivers.....

This can go on and on forever and will not fix the issue between cars and cyclist. Like said above, there are good and bad drivers/cyclists. Both sides need to change their attitudes.

As to fees for cycling? Seriously? I'd gladly pay a fee to ride my bike ONCE they stop people from parking and driving in the bike lane, create more bike paths/lanes so that it is safer to ride, etc.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2011, 09:48:58 pm »


As to fees for cycling? Seriously? I'd gladly pay a fee to ride my bike ONCE they stop people from parking and driving in the bike lane, create more bike paths/lanes so that it is safer to ride, etc.

You don't need a bike lane.  A bike is a vehicle like any other.  Deal with it..... :rofl2:

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 03:06:57 am »
This conference will accomplish nothing because it's just a robotic repetition of the same myths that have dominated this issue for decades in North America.

Here are a few points to illustrate the incompetence of the discussions.

First, as usual and except for a brief mention, cyclists and motorists were depicted as separate camps.  In fact, probalby a majority of motorists ride bicycles sometime, and virtually all adult cyclists drive cars.

Second, Europe easily illustrates what can be done to blend motor vehicle and bicycle traffic to the benefit of everyone.

Third, as usual, cyclists were depicted as ignorant lawbreakers.  While I agree far too many cyclists are too cavalier about the rules of the road, we all know that the overwhelming culture of motorists is lawlessness.  How many of you speed virtually all the time?  Roll through stop signs? Park illegally?  Make illegal U-turns?  Any driver who is unaware of the extent to which motorists break the traffic laws and criticizes cyclists as being lawless, is living a perfect example of prejudice.

Fourth, the Critical Mass ride takes only a few minutes to pass a given point, it happens for only a couple of hours once a month, it happens after work when motorists are similarly engaged in discretionary trips, and anyone can monitor its' location by using a road traffic radio station.  I'm willing to bet 99% of the motorists who complain about it have never even seen it.  At the same time, I know from experience that delays of hours are common in car traffic, and are caused by sheer numbers of motorists, or accidents caused by their incompetence.  The hysterical reaction to Critical Mass is another example of prejudice.

While it is true most streets currently are designated for motor vehicles, there was a time when cyclists had to make way for the automobile. 

Cyclists do not oppose education, insurance and licensing.  Our car-oriented culture does not offer these services because then cyclists would be more difficult to marginalize as illegitimate road users.

It's too bad no one seems to have mentioned that the police virtually NEVER ticket motorists for endangering cyclists.  They don't seem to get it that a close miss between a cyclist and a motorist is a more serious event than a fender bender between motorists. So the cyclists are subsidizing a police service that utterly fails to recognize the interests of cyclists.

I think the new bike paths in Vancouver are ugly and unnecessary.  If we were serious about them, they'd be as attractive as the ones in European cities.  Suburban and rural bike paths would be done properly, rather than cheapo incompetent dangerous jobs squeezed in between trees and hydro poles, with blind corners, steep hills, inconvenient intersections, etc. etc.

The way to integrate bicycle and motor vehicle traffic is based in respect.  Only a minority of cyclists act out disrespect for motorists.  They're in a fairly weak situation to do so.  No, the main problem is that far too many motorists don't respect the right of cyclists to use the roads.  Until that changes, no amount of bike paths and crackdowns on cyclists are going to solve anything.  And since motorists are reluctant to volunteer that respect, it should be up to the police, as representatives of society, to crack down on motorists who endanger cyclists.

In most of Europe, motorists involved in ANY accident with cyclists, are assumed under the law to be at fault and dealt with accordingly.  This is the best way to handle the imbalance between the physical weight being thrown around by the motorists.  The result is that their city traffic "works" without this endless stupid debate we have here.

I was going to stop here, but then I read "life in the slow lane" raise another tired myth: that cyclists don't pay taxes.  I probably can't convince this person that they are wrong, but if a proper analysis is done, you will find that cyclists are subsidizing motorists.  For one thing, we already recognized that most adult cyclists are also drivers and so pay all those taxes.  For another, cyclists cause very little wear and tear to roads, and require much less space than motorists. For another, most roads are paid by taxes that everyone pays and do not come from the gas tax.  For another, I'd be happy to remove most of the gas taxes if the billions in subsidies to the oil industry were also removed.  The subsidies that are never mentioned on the gas pumps beside where they list all the taxes on gas.
And some cretins think I hate cars.

Offline safristi

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2011, 07:09:08 am »
 I'm Mid cycle so approachable..... ;) :)..................The TOUR DE FARCE starts at 8am   watch out ladies..............stage 5.....MEN IN TIGHT SHORTS.... :P
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 07:10:56 am by safristi »
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline Snowman

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Offline Great_Big_Abyss

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 01:56:56 pm »
X-Traction:  + 1 Billion

I definately see more problems coming from motorists than from cyclists. 

A few points:  If the motorist doesn't want the cyclist to pass them in the curb lane while stopped at lights, the motorist should first give up the entire lane to the cyclist when passing him after the light.  If motorists want cyclists to act like full size vehicles, then motorists should treat cyclists like full size vehicles.  This means giving up the entire lane, not cutting us off (for example passing us, then immediately slowing down and making a right turn...Do you know how many times this has happened to me?) and according us respect like you would another driver. 

Licensing cyclists?  Really?  You want to make cycling (which is good for the body and good for the environment) even more prohibitive and less attractive?  Really?  Guess what.  I pay taxes, too.  Even if I didn't drive and didn't buy gas, I would still buy taxes.  The fact is I have a job.  I pay income tax.  I pay sales tax.  I pay taxes on everything.  You're saying I'm entitled to less services you are just because I might pay one less tax (gas tax) than you?

I'm not going to go to Vancouver.  My job(s) are in Winnipeg, my friends and family are in Winnipeg, and frankly I love Winnipeg,  I just expect my city to oblige me and build some more damn bike paths.


Offline X-Traction

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2011, 01:10:28 am »
Hmm, I was almost looking forward to knee-jerk reactions to my post, from the usual suspects.  Perhaps the lack of such blowback suggests we're finally getting somewhere.

I want to add a couple of things.

I think we can all agree that cycling is basically good and we'd all be better off if there was more cycling.  The main obstacle, proven in studies, is that people are in general afraid to ride their bikes in traffic.  What they fear is motorists.  There is no proof that people don't walk or drive because they're afraid of cyclists.  These simple facts make the solution obvious.  Motorists have to be forced to give cyclists a wide berth. 

The police have to awaken from their carbon-monoxide slumber and start enforcing the laws that are supposed to protect the rights of all road users.  Their annual "crackdown on cyclists" has to convert into a crackdown on motorists who endanger cyclists.  Period.  All the bike paths in the world aren't going to work without that change.  England, for instance, is a perfectly sane place to cycle, and they have few, if any, bike paths.  You can cycle there with a calm mind because the motorists respect the right of cyclists to use the roads, and therefore give them lots of space.

If it were not for the systematic marginalization of cycling interests over the last few generations, we wouldn't find ourselves in this mess.  Another consequence is that it's just going to be very expensive to graft cycling infrastructure into what's been built, that new infrastructure is going to be a crappy compromise*, and motorists are going to have to give back some of the exclusive rights to public land they've occupied for so long.

*trying to use some of the bicycle paths around Vancouver will render you seething with frustration caused by bad design.

Some people posted that they feel cyclists were over-represented at this conference.  Cry a river, I say.  Do any of those whiners have any concept whatsoever of how many car-centric conferences, meetings and governement organizations have planned car-centric transportation infrastructure without inviting or considering any cycling interests whatsoever?  SHEESH!  Why don't they go a step farther and claim the pro-cycling organizations are richly funded by American groups seeking to destroy the tar sands?

If anyone actually bothered to look up the details for the conference, as I did, they would find that only 5 of the 16 speakers could be considered representing pro-cycling organizations.  But, I realize some people cherish their myths.

You know what's even more stupid?  The pro-cycling organizations don't want to hear what I have to say, because they think bike paths are the entire answer and that criticizing the police is counterproductive. 

Not only that, but the conference was put together, hosted and controlled by the CAA, an organization comprising and representing the interests of motorists.  They would be happy to concentrate on apparently plausible non-solutions.  So the militant motorists can take comfort that conferences like this will not erode their interests. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 01:38:43 am by X-Traction »

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2011, 01:18:20 am »
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/1020450--pedestrian-hit-by-cyclist-critically-injured?bn=1

Do you also have a history of posting links to stories about cyclists being run down by motorists?  Just asking.

And do you know how many pedestrians and motorists avoid walking or driving because they're afraid of cyclists?  Do you have any idea how many people don't cycle because they're afraid of motorists?

Offline rrocket

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2011, 01:27:40 am »
I always hear cyclist say "I have as much right to this road as a car".  Ok.  No problem.  I agree fully.  So why do you need bike paths then?

And as an avid motorcyclist, I'm sure my lightweight bikes don't damage or put wear and tear on roads either.  But I still have to pay licensing fees every year and have insurance to operate.  So why shouldn't bicycles?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 01:29:19 am by rrocket »

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2011, 01:51:59 am »
I always hear cyclist say "I have as much right to this road as a car".  Ok.  No problem.  I agree fully.  So why do you need bike paths then?

And as an avid motorcyclist, I'm sure my lightweight bikes don't damage or put wear and tear on roads either.  But I still have to pay licensing fees every year and have insurance to operate.  So why shouldn't bicycles?

I'm opposed to the stupid things fobbed off in North America as bike paths.  "Bike Paths" are a completely different matter in Europe.  I don't know how they paid to build them, but they are regarded as a great public resource.  They are so good that cyclists rarely need to ride in traffic.  Friends of mine spend every summer over there touring by bicycle, and they will not tour in North America.

But to answer your question, cyclists in North America think they need bike paths because of the very real problem that far too many motorists don't respect their right to use the roads.  Get rid of that disrespect and the illegal and dangerous behavior that results from it, and there'd be far less clamor for bike paths.  Even if there are bike paths, that fact does not obviate the cyclists' legal entitlement to use the roads.  You will consider that there are roads where cyclists are prohibited.  Some very useful roads.

While obviously many cyclists oppose licensing, insurance etc, I don't.  Licensing would be inexpensive if it cost only enough to cover the expenses.  Cyclists into total road anarchy would, of course, be opposed to it.  Note that the wild bike couriers have licenses.  Licensing might also curb the absurd frequency of bicycle theft.

Insurance could be optional, as is the case in England.  Cyclists generally are covered by various other forms of insurance, but this ad hoc arrangement somehow doesn't seem adequate to me. 

If it makes sense to license and insure motorcycle riders, and therefore it makes sense to license and insure cyclists, then where do you draw the line?  Should pedestrians have licenses and insurance?  I'm not asking to be rude, I think it's a valid question.

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2011, 01:57:26 am »
I always hear cyclist say "I have as much right to this road as a car".  Ok.  No problem.  I agree fully.  So why do you need bike paths then?

And as an avid motorcyclist, I'm sure my lightweight bikes don't damage or put wear and tear on roads either.  But I still have to pay licensing fees every year and have insurance to operate.  So why shouldn't bicycles?

I'm always amused by personification.  While you have referred to cyclists and motorcyclists, you have also referred to cars and bicycles as though they were animate.  It's amazing how often people representing the viewpoint of motorists refer to "cyclists" and "cars", rather than "cyclists" and "motorists".  I often wonder if this means ardent motorists regard their cars as something more "alive", and therefore special and entitled, than just an object.

CatsEye68

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2011, 06:40:36 am »
Hmm, I was almost looking forward to knee-jerk reactions to my post, from the usual suspects.  Perhaps the lack of such blowback suggests we're finally getting somewhere.

No, it merely suggests that time zones cause delays in instantaneous response.

Quote
I think we can all agree that cycling is basically good and we'd all be better off if there was more cycling. 

Speak for yourself. Why is cycling "basically good"? Does that mean that motoring is "basically bad"? This well illustrates the attitude among so many cyclists that they are more virtuous than the rest of us and therefore the basic rules of driving and etiquette do not apply. Absurd.

Quote
The main obstacle, proven in studies, is that people are in general afraid to ride their bikes in traffic.  What they fear is motorists. 

Sort of like how little fish fear swimming with big fish.

Quote
There is no proof that people don't walk or drive because they're afraid of cyclists.  These simple facts make the solution obvious.  Motorists have to be forced to give cyclists a wide berth. 

Are we to create separate oceans for little fish next?

Quote
The police have to awaken from their carbon-monoxide slumber and start enforcing the laws that are supposed to protect the rights of all road users.  Their annual "crackdown on cyclists" has to convert into a crackdown on motorists who endanger cyclists.  Period.  All the bike paths in the world aren't going to work without that change.  England, for instance, is a perfectly sane place to cycle, and they have few, if any, bike paths.  You can cycle there with a calm mind because the motorists respect the right of cyclists to use the roads, and therefore give them lots of space.

And, perhaps the cyclists there actually respect the rules of the road. Perhaps they do not ignore stop signs, use sidewalks to threaten pedestrians, zigzag around traffic lines, use opposing lanes illegally... I could go on and on. Look at the behavior of cyclists here before making such absurd statements.


Offline tpl

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Re: Feature: Sharing the road - cars versus bikes
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2011, 08:18:38 am »
I have an idea.    Let the rules of the road for everyone be those that they have in India.  There have been many Youtube clips of Indian urban traffic and the way cars, trucks, buses interact with bicycles, motorbikes and pedestrians...not to mention cows.  Everyone appears to get along and it would make rush hour far more fun as well as winter driving.