Topic: Mustang EcoBoost Manual

[Fobroader]

Close to purchase you two.

Ontario price for ECObust plus PP is $6200 more than V6 (both with 3:55) and requires 93 octane which means 94 @ 25 cents a litre premium.  DUMB is being polite about it.

Now if this Ecoboost was making 310 HP on 87 octane then a different story.  As it is now, 99.9% Eco Mustangs you see on the road will be driving around in a state of detune because of excessive knock.  It's ridiculous.

Again, I would never own a turbo car and put anything but Shell Vpower into it....as it sits, most of my cars get premium.

But V-Power is only 91 octane, which is Steve's point.

I've never seen anything greater than 91 anywhere in Alberta, although I have heard that 93 is available in a few select spots. Mohawk might have been one, but only at a few locations, and it was full of ethanol anyway.

I was at a Petro Can in Calgary that had 94 octane....don't know if it was ethanol free or what though......

[ArticSteve]

Nobody is saying otherwise. It's very explicit in Ford's marketing material that the posted numbers are on 93 octane.


It's not explicit at all. 

Plus it's not PREMIUM, it's 93 which is 94 here in Ontario.

Ford is really pushing this Ecoboost thing in general and really overdoing it with the Mustang.  They shipped them first, they stocked rental fleets with them first and they are sticking to the marketing story of MPG of a 4 and power of a V8.

[Fobroader]

Nobody is saying otherwise. It's very explicit in Ford's marketing material that the posted numbers are on 93 octane.


It's not explicit at all. 

Plus it's not PREMIUM, it's 93 which is 94 here in Ontario.

Ford is really pushing this Ecoboost thing in general and really overdoing it with the Mustang.  They shipped them first, they stocked rental fleets with them first and they are sticking to the marketing story of MPG of a 4 and power of a V8.

Well thats marketing, if someone believes in everything that box in front of them is shouting then they are the problem. According to TV, a Scion Xb is exciting, a V8 truck is "fuel efficient" and a 300+hp turbo 4 banger is fuel efficient.....if someone actually believes that, I should start selling some prime building lots in Florida......

[Sir Osis of Liver]

IIRC Ecoboosts use a sensor for fuel octane rating to run different fuel maps, in which case it isn't going to be knocking either.


Ford uses what every other manufacturer installs in all their motors; knock sensors.  Here is how it works.    The motor starts "knocking" due to, in this instance, lower than needed octane, the knock sensor picks this up and detunes the motor by retarding the timing.

However, the motor is always in and out of knock because the knock sensors are constantly been switched on and off.  BMW advises owners that use of 87 octane is only a last resort/temporary situation.

You will see no signage on an Ecoboost indicating that the motor is designed for 93 octane.  It's such BS.

Everybody knows how knock sensor work. 

I'll let you in on a little secret. Every car runs so lean now, that every car will be hitting the bounds one way or the other due to air moisture content or the lack thereof, altitude and temperature.

Every brochure that quotes the HP and torque figures has a note that specifies "on 93 octane fuel" and the owners manual states that 93 octane is recommended for maximum performance.

You're just jealous that the most exciting announcement from Toyota lately is the Corolla Nürburgring edition. 

[ArticSteve]

Everybody knows how knock sensor work.

Apparently not 


IIRC Ecoboosts use a sensor for fuel octane rating to run different fuel maps, in which case it isn't going to be knocking either

That above statement is pure crap.  It implies a special Ecoboost "fuel sensor" that prevents knock.  Why not just say "ya, they have engine knock sensors .... so what"

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Everybody knows how knock sensor work.

Apparently not 


IIRC Ecoboosts use a sensor for fuel octane rating to run different fuel maps, in which case it isn't going to be knocking either

That above statement is pure crap.  It implies a special Ecoboost "fuel sensor" that prevents knock.  Why not just say "ya, they have engine knock sensors .... so what"

If it has an octane sensor, it uses a different fuel map based on the fuel octane rating. And I'm pretty sure it does.

Every flex fuel car has sensors that do exactly that. The fuel map changes depending on whether its 87, 91, or E10, or E85.

[tpl]

Doesn't need a special sensor guys.     The ECU will do the work. Compute a number which checks the amount of time the knock sensor is detecting knock.  If that gets above a certain threshold then use a different map assuming lower octane.   Two strategies possible  then. Either go all the way down to the 87 octane map and work back up towards 94 or just drop down from, say, 93, to 91 and collect the data again.     I doubt this would take more than a few seconds to get right...and that is assuming that the ECU will be adjusting all the points on a given map as it does anyway.


IIRC ethanol INCREASES octane number  ( or to be picky AKI  ( R+M)/2 as used in NA)    I think neat ethanol has an AKI of 99.

[Fobroader]

IIRC Ecoboosts use a sensor for fuel octane rating to run different fuel maps, in which case it isn't going to be knocking either.


Ford uses what every other manufacturer installs in all their motors; knock sensors.  Here is how it works.    The motor starts "knocking" due to, in this instance, lower than needed octane, the knock sensor picks this up and detunes the motor by retarding the timing.

However, the motor is always in and out of knock because the knock sensors are constantly been switched on and off.  BMW advises owners that use of 87 octane is only a last resort/temporary situation.

You will see no signage on an Ecoboost indicating that the motor is designed for 93 octane.  It's such BS.

Everybody knows how knock sensor work. 

I'll let you in on a little secret. Every car runs so lean now, that every car will be hitting the bounds one way or the other due to air moisture content or the lack thereof, altitude and temperature.

Every brochure that quotes the HP and torque figures has a note that specifies "on 93 octane fuel" and the owners manual states that 93 octane is recommended for maximum performance.

You're just jealous that the most exciting announcement from Toyota lately is the Corolla Nürburgring edition.

 

[ArticSteve]

I'll let you in on a little secret. Every car runs so lean now, that every car will be hitting the bounds one way or the other due to air moisture content or the lack thereof, altitude and temperature.


Agreed.  Particularly at risk are Ford DI engines.   So you have a super lean system coupled to a boosted motor designed to run on 93 octane that few owners will phony up for or even locate for that matter.   

If it has an octane sensor, it uses a different fuel map based on the fuel octane rating. And I'm pretty sure it does.


Need a pic for that one.    It would need to be part of the fuel line.

Currently, engines use a vibration sensor aka Knock Sensor like the Ford one in the pic.  V6 would have 2.  In place as a safe guard.  Not designed for routine use.

"Premium recommended", "93 recommended for "maximum performance".    It's all BS.  Many companies don't give a fack.  They just want to move the metal and not come clean with the consumer.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Ecoboosts have been around 6 years now. So far they have been reliable. No reason why this one would be any different.

[ArticSteve]

Ecoboosts have been around 6 years now. So far they have been reliable. No reason why this one would be any different.

All Ecoboosts other than for the Mustang as per Ford.ca .....  Recommended Fuel .... Regular Unleaded.

2015 Mustang as per Ford.ca .....   V6 ..... Regular Unleaded
                                                    2.3 ... Premium Unleaded
                                                    V8 .... Regular Unleaded     (figure that one out 

This Mustang 2.3 is not your average  Ecoboost.   Ford has this motor stressed right out of box.  Run anything less than 93 octane and it will vibrate itself to pieces eventually.

[ArticSteve]

^^^

That's exactly what happened to BlunderWriter's F150.  It just died in transit.  Plugs, coils, injectors and new cats.  These motors are touchy.  Out of warranty .... have fun.  Too complex for a Ford.

[Fobroader]

^^^

That's exactly what happened to BlunderWriter's F150.  It just died in transit.  Plugs, coils, injectors and new cats.  These motors are touchy.  Out of warranty .... have fun.  Too complex for a Ford.

I like the idea of the Ecoboost, but like you, I don't like the execution. I would be weary of these down the road. For me, get a 5L and forget about turbos and DI......

[ArticSteve]

Ya, if one has the $$$ that V8 is great.  No question.  Oddly, Ford uses the same transmission as the V6.   

Being a member of peasant class, I'm finding the V6 vert, 6 manual, with 51A (18s plus P/seat) and 3:55 rear LSD pricing so reasonable.  $1000 Costco rebate/incentive currently.  $31,600.  with $1000 dealer discount excluding HST.   0%/60 even.  I dunno. 

You could put 255s on the rear and save the stock 235s for the next set of fronts.  You could easily install a Steeda rear sway bar and better bushings and finally this

 http://www.cjponyparts.com/blowfish-racing-manual-shifter-support-bracket-2015/p/MSSB1/

all for $1K

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Ecoboosts have been around 6 years now. So far they have been reliable. No reason why this one would be any different.

Wait, what?

http://www.consumerclasslawyersblog.com/2014/09/09/ford-ecoboost/

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1OPRB_enCA586CA586&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=ecoboost%20motor%20failures

You should read your link:

After receiving several hundred complaints relating to Ford’s F-150 trucks equipped with an EcoBoost engine suddenly and unexpectedly shuddering, shaking violently, stumbling, misfiring, rapidly losing power, or going into limp mode while a driver is operating the vehicle, the NHTSA launched an investigation. Tests conducted as a result of that investigation traced the problem to condensation in the intercooler. That condensation can result in water being pulled into the engine, which can cause cylinders to misfire. The NHTSA found that a proposed fix by Ford corrected the problem in the F-150s.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Ecoboosts have been around 6 years now. So far they have been reliable. No reason why this one would be any different.

Wait, what?

http://www.consumerclasslawyersblog.com/2014/09/09/ford-ecoboost/

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1OPRB_enCA586CA586&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=ecoboost%20motor%20failures

You should read your link:

After receiving several hundred complaints relating to Ford’s F-150 trucks equipped with an EcoBoost engine suddenly and unexpectedly shuddering, shaking violently, stumbling, misfiring, rapidly losing power, or going into limp mode while a driver is operating the vehicle, the NHTSA launched an investigation. Tests conducted as a result of that investigation traced the problem to condensation in the intercooler. That condensation can result in water being pulled into the engine, which can cause cylinders to misfire. The NHTSA found that a proposed fix by Ford corrected the problem in the F-150s.

You should read the second link sent.  Use some Google Fu on the failures of these motors as I am not going to do it for you.  You might learn a thing or two given you said that the motors "have been reliable."

And here's a list of recent Toyota recalls and lawsuits:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/toyota-recalls-and-class-action-lawsuits?page=2

Everything from wiper motors that catch fire to broken valve springs in the Tundra.

The internet distorts how widespread problems are.

[Fobroader]

Ya, if one has the $$$ that V8 is great.  No question.  Oddly, Ford uses the same transmission as the V6.   

Being a member of peasant class, I'm finding the V6 vert, 6 manual, with 51A (18s plus P/seat) and 3:55 rear LSD pricing so reasonable.  $1000 Costco rebate/incentive currently.  $31,600.  with $1000 dealer discount excluding HST.   0%/60 even.  I dunno. 

You could put 255s on the rear and save the stock 235s for the next set of fronts.  You could easily install a Steeda rear sway bar and better bushings and finally this

 http://www.cjponyparts.com/blowfish-racing-manual-shifter-support-bracket-2015/p/MSSB1/

all for $1K

$31k for a 300hp convertible with a proper manual transmission and rear wheel drive is a great deal.....I didn't think you could get lower gears or an LSD on the V6.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Here are the CR dots for the F150. It's had issues, but not with the engine, which is either "better than average", or "much better than average".

[Sir Osis of Liver]

C'mon Man.  A wiper issue v.s. an engine failure.  Which is worse.

A wiper motor that catches fire? Serious enough. Valve spring failure in an interference engine as in the Tundra, is pretty serious.

[Fobroader]

C'mon Man.  A wiper issue v.s. an engine failure.  Which is worse.

But was it one engine, ten, 100.....thats the thing, in a mass production scheme a handful of failures among millions of products that have no issues is not really concerning. As Sir O said, broken valves will kill an engine and if that wiper motor starts on fire in an attached garage, thats a serious problem....again though, 1 or couple of hundred thousand issues.