Author Topic: My brother picked up an older FGC  (Read 4508 times)

Offline craigq

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My brother picked up an older FGC
« on: October 23, 2016, 09:34:41 am »
1999 MB C230 Kompressor Sedan !  ;D
Should make for some good stories, looks pretty clean for the year, he says it drives well. Had to get a idle air purge valve (or some similar emissions related component, CEL was on), rear shocks and some other items (driver/passenger rear view mirrors, one was held on by tape, the other was delaminating or something); the brake system is good, tires are good etc.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 09:36:29 am by craigq »

Offline EV-Light

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2016, 10:21:37 am »
Very clean! But yeah, will most definitely make for good stories.


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Offline sailor723

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2016, 10:32:45 am »
17 year old Benz from the late 90's.......what could possibly go wrong?  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Old Jag convertible...one itch I won't have to scratch again.

Offline johngenx

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2016, 11:07:00 am »
Having owned a 1998 version of the same car, I can say they're actually not completely terrible in terms of build quality, but do have issues for sure.  Thankfully, mine was the aspro 2.3L.

The most crucial part is the upper spring perch for the front suspension.  MB was starting to get lax in terms of rust proofing during this period, and those perches are prone to corroding.  The perch fails and the entire front suspension goes "poof" and the car is out of control.  Having it happen at speed could be fatal.  I'm not sure if MB recalled the cars for this - they should have.

The Eaton supercharger is a POS.  If it doesn't sound like there's marbles stuck in it, it was probably replaced and will last for a while.  Luckily, it's a standard Eaton part that was sold to other manufacturers and can be found for far less than the MB dealer wants should someone decide to replace one.

The evap-emissions systems are constant problems.  Thankfully he's had an easy fix and the CEL is out now.  Keeping up on it can be maddening.

The fuel tank has two fuel pumps and sending units and they're both failure prone.  The fix requires a lot of labour if you're not an adept DIY.  If the fuel gauge starts acting funny, sell the car.

The 722.6 five speed automatic was a total POS - but MB did work hard to update it for owners and pretty much any car from that era now has a new transmission and updated ECUs for it.  If it's a rare car that has it's original transmission, when (not if) it takes a dump suddenly, have it towed to the wrecker.  Don't repair it.

If the mono-wiper seems to be "missing" sometimes, the the ring gear is probably about to fail.  Previous Mercedes models had the gear made from brass, and it would last forever.  The W210 and W201 were the beginning of the plastic gears, and they wear out.  They're a seriously expensive part - enough to write off a car that old.

If the car has the rain sensing wiper option, oh, joy, how "lucky" for you.  Though outside of Alberta, people don't have to replace windscreens every other spring, so it's not too bad.  The sensor can't be swapped to the new windscreen - you're buying a new one.

If the SRS light comes on, put black tape over it and just figure you've got a car without airbags now.  Repairs to the SRS system are heart-stopping expensive.  You might get lucky and it's the steering wheel clock spring, but that's unlikely.  It's more likely a firing unit.  Of course, the firing unit is built into the bag, so you need a new bag too.  And of course, the firing unit failure causes a surge to the main SRS unit which is protected from the power source, but not the firing units, so 99% of the time it's toast too.  Each of those components cost more than the car is worth.

Offline EV-Light

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2016, 11:08:53 am »
^^^^ [emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33][emoji33]


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Offline safristi

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2016, 11:13:17 am »
 :lick:
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline craigq

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 11:29:27 am »
< HOLY SMOKES C230 SUMMARY !!! >

Thanks for the heads-up ! I'm not sure I should pass this information along to him or not...  :rofl2:

Offline quadzilla

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2016, 11:44:53 am »
Good or bad I like it when people take chances with these older cars. :thumbup:

Offline 2JDM

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2016, 12:44:04 pm »
Even the worst FGCs deserve good homes.  :P :)

Offline mixmanmash

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2016, 12:48:23 pm »
17 year old Benz from the late 90's.......what could possibly go wrong?  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Lol.  Exactly what I was thinking.

Best of luck to your brother.  He's going to need it.


And to add to johngenx post, there are also issues with the manual transmission.  I can't recall what it was, but I know many that had to have them replaced under warranty.

Offline johngenx

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2016, 02:18:36 pm »
No stick for the 1999 W202 C-Class.  They offered the 6MT in 2001 with the introduction of the W203 chassis - they're rare - few people bought them.

There are SOME good things about that car.

First, the M111 four cylinder is a beast.  It's over-engineered like crazy.  When it was new, I went to an introduction and saw it all apart.  Very impressive.  Giant main bearings, huge double-row timing chain, big steel crank, and on and on.  I could barely believe the quality for a low hp four cylinder.  The "old fashioned" Mercedes thinking.  With regular oil changes, that engine should be still running when the sun finally envelopes the earth.

The 722.6 automatic went through so many teething problems that Mercedes seemed to really work hard to sort it out.

A lot of stuff is really DIY friendly.  I did all my own service easily.  A brake job requires a few simple hand tools and can be done at home in an hour or so.  Stuff like that is super simple.  The engine bay isn't crowded and repairs are not difficult.

The double wishbone front and multi link rear suspension is really good and for a car tuned for the lux spectrum, it actually handles pretty well.  The old design steering box is slow, but the suspension itself is good.

Mine was close to 10 years old when I sold it, and there wasn't a creak or rattle or squeak anywhere.  Structurally, the car felt new.

For a car about the size of a Corolla, the trunk is big!  The multi-link rear suspension intrudes barely at all, and the high lid means ample space.

Offline safristi

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2016, 02:23:38 pm »
well we always warned him aboot OCTOPUSSFEST.......BIG beers  und BIG broads R trubblehorn YA!! :popo: :o :pimp: :bounce: :pimp: :bounce: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: 

Offline TheHire

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2016, 03:13:18 pm »
Good or bad I like it when people take chances with these older cars. :thumbup:

Hey the '88 560 SEL is still bulletproof! *knocks wood*
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Offline sailor723

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2016, 03:24:19 pm »
Good or bad I like it when people take chances with these older cars. :thumbup:

Hey the '88 560 SEL is still bulletproof! *knocks wood*

I think the odds of a "good one" are a lot better if the car is pre mid 90's.  That's about the time things really started to go sideways for MB in terms of reliability.

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2016, 07:41:31 pm »
Having owned a 1998 version of the same car, I can say they're actually not completely terrible in terms of build quality, but do have issues for sure.  Thankfully, mine was the aspro 2.3L.

The most crucial part is the upper spring perch for the front suspension.  MB was starting to get lax in terms of rust proofing during this period, and those perches are prone to corroding.  The perch fails and the entire front suspension goes "poof" and the car is out of control.  Having it happen at speed could be fatal.  I'm not sure if MB recalled the cars for this - they should have.

The Eaton supercharger is a POS.  If it doesn't sound like there's marbles stuck in it, it was probably replaced and will last for a while.  Luckily, it's a standard Eaton part that was sold to other manufacturers and can be found for far less than the MB dealer wants should someone decide to replace one.

The evap-emissions systems are constant problems.  Thankfully he's had an easy fix and the CEL is out now.  Keeping up on it can be maddening.

The fuel tank has two fuel pumps and sending units and they're both failure prone.  The fix requires a lot of labour if you're not an adept DIY.  If the fuel gauge starts acting funny, sell the car.

The 722.6 five speed automatic was a total POS - but MB did work hard to update it for owners and pretty much any car from that era now has a new transmission and updated ECUs for it.  If it's a rare car that has it's original transmission, when (not if) it takes a dump suddenly, have it towed to the wrecker.  Don't repair it.

If the mono-wiper seems to be "missing" sometimes, the the ring gear is probably about to fail.  Previous Mercedes models had the gear made from brass, and it would last forever.  The W210 and W201 were the beginning of the plastic gears, and they wear out.  They're a seriously expensive part - enough to write off a car that old.

If the car has the rain sensing wiper option, oh, joy, how "lucky" for you.  Though outside of Alberta, people don't have to replace windscreens every other spring, so it's not too bad.  The sensor can't be swapped to the new windscreen - you're buying a new one.

If the SRS light comes on, put black tape over it and just figure you've got a car without airbags now.  Repairs to the SRS system are heart-stopping expensive.  You might get lucky and it's the steering wheel clock spring, but that's unlikely.  It's more likely a firing unit.  Of course, the firing unit is built into the bag, so you need a new bag too.  And of course, the firing unit failure causes a surge to the main SRS unit which is protected from the power source, but not the firing units, so 99% of the time it's toast too.  Each of those components cost more than the car is worth.

Funny, my brother owned a 98 SLK230 (similar, or same engine/trans?) and that list aligns almost perfectly with his issues.

If craig's brother is reasonably handy (and patient) this car will be fine.....Most FGC issues are annoying, but not debilitating, so as long as you're ok with driving around in a "work in progress", they can be cheap and fun to tinker with.

Offline mixmanmash

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2016, 08:54:42 pm »
No stick for the 1999 W202 C-Class.  They offered the 6MT in 2001 with the introduction of the W203 chassis - they're rare - few people bought them.

There are SOME good things about that car.

First, the M111 four cylinder is a beast.  It's over-engineered like crazy.  When it was new, I went to an introduction and saw it all apart.  Very impressive.  Giant main bearings, huge double-row timing chain, big steel crank, and on and on.  I could barely believe the quality for a low hp four cylinder.  The "old fashioned" Mercedes thinking.  With regular oil changes, that engine should be still running when the sun finally envelopes the earth.

The 722.6 automatic went through so many teething problems that Mercedes seemed to really work hard to sort it out.

A lot of stuff is really DIY friendly.  I did all my own service easily.  A brake job requires a few simple hand tools and can be done at home in an hour or so.  Stuff like that is super simple.  The engine bay isn't crowded and repairs are not difficult.

The double wishbone front and multi link rear suspension is really good and for a car tuned for the lux spectrum, it actually handles pretty well.  The old design steering box is slow, but the suspension itself is good.

Mine was close to 10 years old when I sold it, and there wasn't a creak or rattle or squeak anywhere.  Structurally, the car felt new.

For a car about the size of a Corolla, the trunk is big!  The multi-link rear suspension intrudes barely at all, and the high lid means ample space.
You are right!  I confused the 2 chassis for some reason.


The rust issues on the W202 seem to be the same as on the W210 E-Class.  I've seen a few of them loose the front spring perches.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 08:57:31 pm by mixmanmash »

Offline johngenx

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2016, 09:31:48 pm »

The rust issues on the W202 seem to be the same as on the W210 E-Class.  I've seen a few of them loose the front spring perches.

Yup - the E-Class is affected as well.

Mercedes made among the best cars in the world through the 1980s.  The first JD Power and other statistical reliability and quality measures ranked MB far ahead of anyone else.  But, something changed in 1990.  A nuclear bomb was dropped on the luxury car industry.  And it was launched by Toyota.

The Lexus LS400 changed the landscape dramatically.  It was priced far below the Germans.  Targeting Mercedes more than the others - the Lexus looked a lot like MB models (plastic lower cladding, upright grille, etc, etc) and in terms of driving dynamics, placed the V-8 E-Class and SWB S-Class squarely in it's sights.

The kicker?  It was priced well below the Mercedes models.  At first, the auto industry seemed skeptical that anyone could do what Toyota was doing.  But, in short order, they showed that the Lexus not only matched, but in many ways, exceed the Mercedes models in terms of build quality.  And at that much lower price.

As the 90's wore on, Mercedes reworked models and pricing, making their cars more attractive compared to the Lexus models.  They added electronics and dropped prices.  They tried to trim production costs.  Corner cutting?  Some think so.

One huge stumble was the change to "green" processes.  Toyota switched to water-based paints and reworked their rust-proofing and for the most part, it was successful.  Mercedes struggled here.  The first years of water-based painted cars were terrible.  Their change to environmentally friendly rust proofing was a flop - the bodies weren't too bad, but the things like spring perches were not great.  When I sold my 1998 C230, it had far more corrosion issues than the 1990 190E I sold not long before that.  In fact, the 1990 car had NO rust despite 509,000km and a lot of hard winters.

So today, it not uncommon to see late 90's Mercedes that look old.  Paints faded or chipped easily and the rust resistance of previous models was lacking.

Other things happened in the 90s.  The MB Tex of years past was expensive.  Not much cheaper to make than leather, actually.  Customers loved it because it looked great forever.  It was a hallmark of MB interiors, even sold on expensive S-Class cars.  During the 90s, they thinned the material to save money.  And interiors wore early.  The cars lost a lot of their appeal in some ways.

Toyota used their engineering prowess to build electronics that worked.  And kept working.  The Germans were never all that great with moving electrons around cars.  Bosch, VDO and others had been building crap components for Mercedes for decades, and hell, why change now?  Even those amazing cars from the 80s had crappy radios, breaking power antennas, barely working cruise control units, and so on.  But, people shrugged their shoulders and said "gadgets are for Caddy drivers, I have a Mercedes that is a mechanical wonder."  And they were right, pretty much.  But Toyota proved that the market wanted a car that was mechanically perfect AND had reliable electronics.

Mercedes began to rush things to market and experimented on customers.  Okay, Germans had been doing this forever, but it got worse post-Lexus-introduction.  The 722.6 five speed automatic is a perfect example.  Mercedes wanted to scoop the other makes by offering a five speed across the entire line.  It would be a fully electronically controlled unit, and "filled for life."

What a fiasco.  They pretty much all failed.  It was never really tested and hardly any of them made it past the warranty period, luckily for buyers.  Filled for life also proved to be erroneous - people soon realized it meant "for the life of the warranty."  Not changing the fluid every 100K-kms or so meant your trans would be dead.  The hilarious thing was even though they insisted it was "fill for life" there was a highly detailed system including software and hardware for changing the fluid.  Cripes.

Other things caused people to rethink MB as a brand.  They needed to get rid of inline engines and go to V-6s for packaging.  Again, they rushed things. Several years of V-6 engines were sold with faulty harmonic balancers that would fly apart, potentially ripping your engine bay to bits.

The list of things like this got long.  MB's brand image faltered.  The internet didn't help - word spread.  We talk about FGCs, right?  The term is rooted in fact.  BMW and Audi have stories not unlike Mercedes' - quality issues when faced with intense Japanese and other German competition.

Offline sailor723

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Re: My brother picked up an older FGC
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2016, 07:54:32 am »
Excellent post John. As someone who was involved in a MB franchise in the 90's I think you summed it up quite nicely. The introduction of Lexus brought on a radical change in MB corporate philosophy and product, none of which were for the better from a consumer POV.

If there was ever situation where the old adage "they don't build them like they used too" applied, Mercedes Benz cars post mid 90's is it.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 07:59:43 am by sailor723 »