Topic: Test Drive: 2013 BMW ActiveHybrid 3

[Autos_Editor]

It offers better fuel economy than the 335i with comparable performance, but is the price difference worth it?

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[ChaosphereIX]

not the car for me...by a long shot. BMW as of late has taken its already questionable design direction and made it worse. The 3 series looks terrible in my eyes, the competition from Audi, Merc, and Volvo look much better. I respect its performance and its build quality, but I would rather have the A4 thanks.

[Ex-airbalancer]

Once again the writer does not get the hybrid, it more about reducing your carbon footprint then gas savings
People who buy carbon credits when they fly will buy this car

[ChaosphereIX]

Once again the writer does not get the hybrid, it more about reducing your carbon footprint then gas savings
People who buy carbon credits when they fly will buy this car

? Thought the whole point of hybrids was to save gas. Carbon footprint is merely a unit of measure of your karma with mother earth, good to strive for but by no means should be the PRIMARY reason one buys such a large purchase item as a car.

[Ex-airbalancer]

Once again the writer does not get the hybrid, it more about reducing your carbon footprint then gas savings
People who buy carbon credits when they fly will buy this car

? Thought the whole point of hybrids was to save gas. Carbon footprint is merely a unit of measure of your karma with mother earth, good to strive for but by no means should be the PRIMARY reason one buys such a large purchase item as a car.

I guess you do not get it either   

[ChaosphereIX]

Once again the writer does not get the hybrid, it more about reducing your carbon footprint then gas savings
People who buy carbon credits when they fly will buy this car

? Thought the whole point of hybrids was to save gas. Carbon footprint is merely a unit of measure of your karma with mother earth, good to strive for but by no means should be the PRIMARY reason one buys such a large purchase item as a car.

I guess you do not get it either

I guess I do not. Please educate me.

[canuckystan]

If you're not using less fuel, then you are not reducing your carbon footprint, full-stop.  I can see the advantage here for Vancouver's rush hour where it probably does well on fuel.  But the Germans don't have a great track record with electronics - a hybrid BMW sounds like a nightmare after the warranty expires.

[Noto]

Greg, great review!  Very comprehensive and neutral - a rarity these days.


As for the Active3 vs 335i vs 335d...me thinks BMW is playing economic games (good for them!).

You see, tech costs.  The more tech ya have, the more the car costs.  Is it linear (i.e. the amount it costs BMW = the amount the consumer is charged)?  HA, no...BMW makes much more markup on these 'alt fuel option' puppies.

Basic hybrids are expensive...few people want to pay $30-40k for a cheap car that uses a bit less fuel.  On the other hand, luxury hybrids are a brilliant idea from a corporate earning standpoint - people pay a lot for the car anyway, so a $2-4k price jump is more palatable.  Making performance equal or better to its non-hybrid counterpart just sweetens the deal.

My parents bought an RX400h at 1 yr old and 9,000mi on it from the US...They saved over $30k from the sales price of a new one in Canada...lest I digress - point is, their RX400h gets 4MPG better than their neighbour's RX350, is faster, more torque-y, etc.  They are happy with their purchase, especially since they paid less (depreciation's a b!tch).

The Active3 gets 7.1L/100km city for the auto vs 7.6L/100km city for the 335i auto (both are RWD).  That, coupled with a 0-60 jaunt that is slower in the Active3, and I'm confused what the point is.  There's no performance benefit, and the fuel savings is negligible (and probably won't show in real world driving, especially with a/c or heaters used).

What I love about this hybrid - they kept a decent trunk space, the back bench folds 40/20/40 despite a battery pack in the trunk, and it's apparently very smooth.

Still, I would like to see sales #s in Canada for the 335i vs 335i with xdrive - I'd wager that the xdrive version sells better.  Neither the 335d nor the Active3 have xdrive as an option, which is a huge deterrent for many 'round these parts.

[Soram6275]

Once again the writer does not get the hybrid, it more about reducing your carbon footprint then gas savings
People who buy carbon credits when they fly will buy this car

? Thought the whole point of hybrids was to save gas. Carbon footprint is merely a unit of measure of your karma with mother earth, good to strive for but by no means should be the PRIMARY reason one buys such a large purchase item as a car.

I agree with you.  I would get the 335d myself for real savings, but then again, are people really concerned about gas savings at this price point?  Not sure.

[Soram6275]

If you're not using less fuel, then you are not reducing your carbon footprint, full-stop.  I can see the advantage here for Vancouver's rush hour where it probably does well on fuel.  But the Germans don't have a great track record with electronics - a hybrid BMW sounds like a nightmare after the warranty expires.

You're right.  As much as I may dislike it, if shopping for a hybrid I will choose the Prius over any other hybrid out there.  They have proven reliability, including serving in Taxi fleets in Vancouver, etc.  While I love BMWs, this thing would be an absolute nightmare in 4 years - which seems like BMW self-destruct mode time.

[X-Traction]

from the article:

Thanks mainly to the Toyota Prius, we’ve come to view hybrid cars as fuel-efficient yet uninspiring green machines that aren’t very exciting to drive. Just the word ‘hybrid’ implies a compromise between fuel efficiency and performance.

That's what airbalancer is talking about.  It seems beyond the imagination of some that there are people who are more excited about reducing their carbon footprint than having a car that can do all sorts of other things (such as a very high top speed) that are utterly useless.   And there's always the point that hybrids can use the electric system as a boost, just like a turbo.

Basic hybrids are expensive...few people want to pay $30-40k for a cheap car that uses a bit less fuel.  On the other hand, luxury hybrids are a brilliant idea from a corporate earning standpoint - people pay a lot for the car anyway, so a $2-4k price jump is more palatable.  Making performance equal or better to its non-hybrid counterpart just sweetens the deal.

My parents bought an RX400h at 1 yr old and 9,000mi on it from the US...They saved over $30k from the sales price of a new one in Canada...lest I digress - point is, their RX400h gets 4MPG better than their neighbour's RX350, is faster, more torque-y, etc.  They are happy with their purchase, especially since they paid less (depreciation's a b!tch).

The Active3 gets 7.1L/100km city for the auto vs 7.6L/100km city for the 335i auto (both are RWD).  That, coupled with a 0-60 jaunt that is slower in the Active3, and I'm confused what the point is.  There's no performance benefit, and the fuel savings is negligible (and probably won't show in real world driving, especially with a/c or heaters used).

Are you the same person who posted previously about the RX400h?  I thought we'd already addressed its mileage as not being fairly representative since we don't know how it's being used.

Basic hybrids may be "expensive", but people happily shell out as much or lots more money for many other arguably less useful features.

Where hybrids' mileage varies most from non-hybrids is in congested city driving and hilly roads.  Mileage comparisons based on standard tests just don't show the extent of the hybrid's benefits.  All you have to do is stop at a light with the engine off, and wonder at how odd it is that the dozen cars around you are all sitting there with engines running.

For comparison, the Ford Escape Hybrid fwd is rated at 6.9l/100km city, and 7.6l/100km highway.  Our '09 Escape Hybrid with awd and winter tires, driving with no special techniques 10kph over the speed limits, makes round trips from home in Vancouver to Whistler at 8l/100km.  That's 35mpg Imperial.  I don't know the total, but this drive includes at least 4000' vertical feet of climbing which would cost non-hybrids a hefty penalty in highway mileage.  This is the sort of thing that belies the claims hybrids' mileage is only negligibly better than non-hybrids.

And for another comparison, our Grand Vitara, a vehicle similar to the Escape Hybrid, is rated at 9.3l/100km highway. So it can't even match the Escape under ideal circumstances.  It gets even worse mileage on hilly/mountainous roads.  Obviously the city mileage may be as bad as half as good as the Escape.  Those differences are more than negligible.

Lastly, does this BMW have a 120v 3-prong outlet like the Escape Hybrid has?

[Noto]

Are you the same person who posted previously about the RX400h?  I thought we'd already addressed its mileage as not being fairly representative since we don't know how it's being used.

...you're not incorrect, but I'm not discussing that because it's too volatile.

I'm discussing EPA estimates - the 2006 RX330 AWD stickered 17/23 (19mpg combined), the 2006 RX400h stickered at 27/25 (26 combined).

And at least the 2006 RX400h showed 268hp and 325lb-ft of torque vs the 2006 RX330s 223hp and 238ft-lb of torque, and 0-60 time increased by half a second.

My point was/is that at least the sticker showed some benefit - the BMW's 7.6l/100km vs 7.1l/100km is 31 vs 33mpg...so a 2mpg benefit in the city by the sticker, and no significant change for the highway...and the slight bump in power with the 0-60 time being slower - I wouldn't really call it a performance hybrid for the $6,500 overhead the Active3 commands.

[X-Traction]

Are you the same person who posted previously about the RX400h?  I thought we'd already addressed its mileage as not being fairly representative since we don't know how it's being used.

...you're not incorrect, but I'm not discussing that because it's too volatile.

I'm discussing EPA estimates - the 2006 RX330 AWD stickered 17/23 (19mpg combined), the 2006 RX400h stickered at 27/25 (26 combined).

And at least the 2006 RX400h showed 268hp and 325lb-ft of torque vs the 2006 RX330s 223hp and 238ft-lb of torque, and 0-60 time increased by half a second.

My point was/is that at least the sticker showed some benefit - the BMW's 7.6l/100km vs 7.1l/100km is 31 vs 33mpg...so a 2mpg benefit in the city by the sticker, and no significant change for the highway...and the slight bump in power with the 0-60 time being slower - I wouldn't really call it a performance hybrid for the $6,500 overhead the Active3 commands.

Fair enough.  But I think the sticker mileage ratings reflect only the more efficient end of the scale.  I doubt the city ratings include traffic jams, multiple cycle waits at lights, looking for a parking place and so on.  The highway figures probably don't include going up and down hills, slowing for sharp corners....  It's like the worse the conditions for mileage, other than higher speed, the better the hybrids compare.

And another question.  Plenty of people express that hybrids are basically pointless.  I can sort of see how this criticism could be aimed at, say, Toyota and Ford.  But why do most of the most respected manufacturers make them?  Like, why do BMW and Lexus fans think BMW and Lexus make hybrids?

[huota]

I forget the details, but BMW and Toyota have entered in a cooperation effort where Toyota gets diesel engine technology know-how from BMW. Could it be that BMW get hybrid tech know-how from Toyota in return? Anyone know? If that's the case, I'm sure it wouldn't be advertised by BMW...

[Noto]

Fair enough.  But I think the sticker mileage ratings reflect only the more efficient end of the scale.  I doubt the city ratings include traffic jams, multiple cycle waits at lights, looking for a parking place and so on.  The highway figures probably don't include going up and down hills, slowing for sharp corners....  It's like the worse the conditions for mileage, other than higher speed, the better the hybrids compare.

With respect, have you ever driven a hybrid in traffic or in parking lots?  That's where they shine the most!  The engine is 100% off in those conditions and you move along using no gas.  In parking lots in the RX400h, I get 99.9MPG, and in heavy traffic (city or highway) I get usually around 80MPG (engine comes on every 10-15 mins to recharge the battery).

The RX400h was never meant to have great hwy fuel economy.  We get about 23MPG at 120km/h and 26MPG at 100km/h no matter the weather (even in the snow, we seem to get the same on the highway, but the city mileage drops considerably).

As for your claim about sticker mileage - that's true of EVERY car.  You think the BMW 335i with its 7.6L/100km city rating actually gets 7.6?!  Never.  Ever. 

Hybrid economy depends on how you drive, but my mother drives it as she would a non-hybrid and still manages 25MPG city in the winter (so long as the heater is off).

[X-Traction]

Fair enough.  But I think the sticker mileage ratings reflect only the more efficient end of the scale.  I doubt the city ratings include traffic jams, multiple cycle waits at lights, looking for a parking place and so on.  The highway figures probably don't include going up and down hills, slowing for sharp corners....  It's like the worse the conditions for mileage, other than higher speed, the better the hybrids compare.

With respect, have you ever driven a hybrid in traffic or in parking lots?  That's where they shine the most!  The engine is 100% off in those conditions and you move along using no gas.  In parking lots in the RX400h, I get 99.9MPG, and in heavy traffic (city or highway) I get usually around 80MPG (engine comes on every 10-15 mins to recharge the battery).

The RX400h was never meant to have great hwy fuel economy.  We get about 23MPG at 120km/h and 26MPG at 100km/h no matter the weather (even in the snow, we seem to get the same on the highway, but the city mileage drops considerably).

As for your claim about sticker mileage - that's true of EVERY car.  You think the BMW 335i with its 7.6L/100km city rating actually gets 7.6?!  Never.  Ever. 

Hybrid economy depends on how you drive, but my mother drives it as she would a non-hybrid and still manages 25MPG city in the winter (so long as the heater is off).

I've had an Escape Hybrid for a couple of months now, and I have indeed driven in parking lots and traffic.  Yes, it runs on electric-only at times.  But it doesn't cancel the laws of physics and although the numbers seem impressive, they are simply misleading.  Sort of like a non-hybrid coasting down a hill and claiming fantastic mileage.

Any time a hybrid is running on electric, it is depleting the traction battery, and must, eventually, replenish the battery.  It can only replenish the battery by running the gas engine.  Yes, that replenishment may be interrupted by engine braking or using the regenerative braking, but the electric mode is never a free ride.

Hybrid fuel efficiency is the same as any car in that all else being equal, hills, driving fast and with sudden and frequent changes in speed will hurt mileage.  Hybrid fuel efficiency is different from non-hybrids in that they save the otherwise wasted energy going downhill or slowing/stopping, and uses that stored energy as a boost the next time you drive uphill, increase speed, or drive in electric-only mode.  Hybrids also differ because besides the engine, a large battery has to be temperature regulated, and frequent short drives are inefficient.

The sticker mileage is not entirely out to lunch.  If the Escape Hybrid AWD is stickered at 7.5L/100km highway, and I can get 8l/100km from startup, in the winter, winter tires, in traffic and on mountain roads, then I'm sure I could match 7.5, on a straight flat highway in the summer with summer tires at a steady 90kph and the vehicle warmed up.

I expect running accessories such as the hvac system will have the same effect on a hybrid's mileage as a non-hybrid.

[Ex-airbalancer]

I expect running accessories such as the hvac system will have the same effect on a hybrid's mileage as a non-hybrid.

In a gen 3 Prius, the ac is run off the traction battery

[X-Traction]

I expect running accessories such as the hvac system will have the same effect on a hybrid's mileage as a non-hybrid.

In a gen 3 Prius, the ac is run off the traction battery

True, and this saves a very small amount of fuel by allowing more situations where the ICE can shut down.  It also means there are no drive belts.  The traction battery cooling/heating system just uses passenger compartment air because someone figured out that the traction battery likes the same temperatures as people.

The 2010 - 2012 Escape Hybrid also incorporated that change.  That's why the last 3 years of the Escape Hybrid don't have the vent in the rear quarter window on the driver's side.  It does have a vent in the cargo area that's supposed to be kept clear of baggage.

[Noto]

Notice how VW, the pioneer in compact car diesels, brought out a hybrid for the Jetta as well?  The diesel will be better for highway cruisers, the hybrid will be slightly better for city dwellers.  Personally, I'd sacrifice the bit of fuel savings in exchange for a full trunk.

Either way, point is that manufacturers know that the more fuel options they have, the more cars they can sell.  Smart kids.

[X-Traction]

Personally, I'd sacrifice the bit of fuel savings in exchange for a full trunk.

But you get some of it back because the fuel tank can be smaller.