Author Topic: Impossible To Balance Rims / Tires (Read 8605 times)

AP · « **on:** May 14, 2016, 06:59:21 pm »

[deleted at request of poster]

bridgecity · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2016, 07:11:54 pm »

Have you looked into the problem on mdxers.org? I haven't spent much time on there (well, compared to here anyway) but if it's a known problem then there would be a thread or two about it.

HeliDriver · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2016, 07:26:28 pm »

I've never tried it, but apparently there are places that can do a wheel balance while the wheel is still on the car. Might be worth looking into, and possibly what your mechanic was talking about being done at the factory.

EV Dan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2016, 08:55:54 pm »

Could be out of balance rotors... or possibly a locking wheel nut of a different weight or length... theoretically speaking.

EV Dan · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2016, 09:51:28 pm »

Quote from: AP on May 14, 2016, 09:32:42 pm

Thanks for the suggestions.

MDXers.org reflects that I am not the only one. But I was not able to find any solutions there...

I too thought it was a warped brake rotor problem. But here's the thing: it was the tire change that caused the problem. For some reason, they cannot restore the balance to the pre-tire swap balance.

There is a place on the east side of Toronto that does on-car balancing. Barring any other suggestions, that will be my last attempt. After that, it may be a "what car?" thread for me...

Please post the outcome.
The rotor doesn't need to be warped to throw off the balance.
Let's say the original factory rotor was off balance and the original wheel/tire combo was also off balance. Instead of being balanced separately, the factory chose to save a few minutes and balance the whole assembly alltogether in one shot. Then basically the moment the wheel is taken off its lugs and turned clock or counter-clock wise against the brake rotor, the perfect balance is gone.
I hope the on-car balancing will cure the issue.

ArticSteve · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2016, 10:29:39 pm »

Rogue vibrations are very difficult. I'd find a premiere alignment shop. During the alignment they should be able to give an accurate assessment of the front suspension bits.

capriracer · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2016, 10:09:38 am »

AP,

Given all the things that you have done, my best guess is that there is something in the vehicle itself that makes it extraordinarily sensitive to any sorts of vibration. I've heard about many vehicles that have this sort of problem and fixing it involves changing the structure of the car - that is welding a brace to change the resonant frequency of chassis.

So as a first step, you should consult with other owners of your vehicle. Have any of them tried strut braces or similar stiffeners? These are the kind of things you'll find in racing catalogs. They MIGHT work, but they might not. Collectively, someone must have tried a few of these things.

Second, what was the result (in numbers) of the road force balance? Given that a tire change triggered the appearance of the problem, it just might be the tires (and/or wheels) are out of round. What you should be looking for is something under 10#. Plus, it might be the fit of the wheel to the hub.

Do you have aftermarket wheels? They typically aren't centered by the hub - which means the lugs are centering the wheels and that is prone to issues.

tpl · « **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2016, 10:28:40 am »

My E46 BMW was sensitive to wheel balance even with oem wheels. One of those road force balancers solved the problem.

johngenx · « **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2016, 11:00:11 am »

I have to wonder how long this has been a "Honda thing." When we owned an Acura, the dealer was one of the only ones I knew that used an on-car wheel balance machine.

Over the years we've owned some cars that were incredibly sensitive to wheel balance (our Acura being one of them, even as far back as our 1990 model) and others that didn't seem to care nearly as much.

I have heard that large diameter wheels can be problematic - I talked to many C36 owners that struggled with wheel balance after going larger than the OE 17" - even the 17" factory set up was quite sensitive to balance. Quite a few owners that I talked to had gone back down to 17" to cure shaky steering wheels. And they were using very expensive AMG wheels for their plus ones.

Thinking about it, our 16" snow tires set up on the C36 weren't re-balanced once.

Rupert · « **Reply #9 on:** May 16, 2016, 10:21:39 am »

Has anyone had an out-of-balance rotor? Seems to me that they are totally machined on centre and much smaller diameter than the wheel. How can they be out-of-balance enough to minutely notice. However if the stud holes are made too large and there is no other centering means...rusted spigot perhaps; this might be an issue I suppose.
Do the different wheels have the same offset with no centering spacer involved? Sounds like a simple centering problem with the wheels.

Rupert · « **Reply #10 on:** May 16, 2016, 11:09:20 am »

Has anyone had an out-of-balance rotor? Seems to me that they are totally machined on centre and much smaller diameter than the wheel. How can they be out-of-balance enough to minutely notice. However if the stud holes are made too large and there is no other centering means...rusted spigot perhaps; this might be an issue I suppose.
Do the different wheels have the same offset with no centering spacer involved? Sounds like a simple centering problem with the wheels...if the wheels are balanced and not out of round.

I had a balancing problem with the Accent when it was new. There was an out of balance period at about 55/60 km/ and I seem to think that you passed through it. I found the problem to be inboard drive shaft tri-pod joints after much research and insisted that they be changed. This meant new drive shafts in fact, because the joints could not be changed individually. It solved the problem completely and saved me ditching the car in frustration. The car is 10 years old now and still giving one of my children great service. Maybe your inboard joints are different perhaps.

I think my out of balance problem was caused by a broken rubber boot that leaked out the grease from an inboard joint. This will wear the ball groove and result in radial play that becomes apparent at certain speeds. Even if new, these joints can be suspect for vibration. I know that this seemingly occurred with a wheel and tire change but this would have required the car to be jacked up and the inboard joints to be extended to their max angle which might have been enough to start something.

Had a problem with the computer so some of this is a repeat.

Rupert · « **Reply #11 on:** May 16, 2016, 11:37:54 am »

I added a bit more to my last post.
Anyway, winter tires have deeper and softer walls and rubber which must do something to the dynamics of the assembly as a whole. Check to see if you have tripod inboard joints. They have to do a lot of work...catering for angular movement of drive shafts and corresponding change in length of the same...also providing the drive torque. And, remember that changing wheels extends them to their greatest angle. Which is what you did when changing from good to bad.

http://media-centre.gkndriveline.com/drivelinecms/opencms/en/media-centre/news/gkn-news/article_0004.html

You have the above ref. type of joint.

tooscoops · « **Reply #12 on:** May 16, 2016, 03:17:42 pm »

should we be putting an order in on a challenger for you? heh...

my pacer had a ridiculous "balance" issue... it actually is/was the axle itself. the old school tech who fixed it for me aligned the "high spot" with the tires somehow and made the horrible feel/noise go away... not that my post will help you, but just giving you hope that stranger things can be fixed by a good tech and some time and patience.

Rupert · « **Reply #13 on:** May 16, 2016, 07:44:16 pm »

Find a local garage and just get under the vehicle and rattle the inboard tripod joints around. If there is any play it might be the cause and just this component. Signs of grease around the joint boot seals at the shaft is an indication of wear. Presumably there are 4 inboard tripods on an all wheel drive vehicle. Check em all. Ramp the car up standing on it's wheels so that the joints are at normal position.

There seems to be a lot of traffic on the internet about vibration on this vehicle...this means not much though, as any vehicle will have some. Anyway the message was mainly that it was transmission related. What is meant by that is any one's guess...but...the inboard tripods are part of the transmission and can be individually changed, I believe, on your vehicle at about $60 per. for parts. It's probably more than that here. Might be worth giving those joints a visual and a good shake; if only to just rule them out.

Outer Rzeppa joint wear would be a more noticeable problem when turning on max lock...clunking and noise. Ah well...I hope you solve the problem and I hope that this is not a bum steer but in a similar situation it worked for me and the dealership did the work under the guarantee.

Great_Big_Abyss · « **Reply #14 on:** May 24, 2016, 12:53:15 pm »

Little bit of a thread jack,

But is a tire plug enough to throw a wheel/tire out of balance? I had my left front tire plugged a few weeks ago (2nd plug in that tire) and now my steering wheel shakes a little at highway speed.

Could I safely assume that the tire plug has thrown that one wheel/tire out of balance?

mrthompson · « **Reply #15 on:** May 24, 2016, 01:00:45 pm »

Quote from: Great_Big_Abyss on May 24, 2016, 12:53:15 pm

Little bit of a thread jack,

But is a tire plug enough to throw a wheel/tire out of balance? I had my left front tire plugged a few weeks ago (2nd plug in that tire) and now my steering wheel shakes a little at highway speed.

Could I safely assume that the tire plug has thrown that one wheel/tire out of balance?

The shop likely didn't install the tire in the same location on the wheel. Or they didn't rebalance the tire/wheel.

Rupert · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2016, 01:06:26 pm »

Yeah, probably not re-balanced correctly after patching the inside. I have plugged my own from the outside and never had a problem with leakage or balance.

Great_Big_Abyss · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2016, 03:29:30 pm »

I just got back from dealing with this.

When they repaired my tire three weeks ago they marked the tire at the valve stem, then removed the tire to patch from the inside. Once patched, they were supposed to remount the tire, realigning the mark with the valvestem, so as to not have to rebalance the wheel/tire. Unfortunately, the tech didn't do this, and I didn't notice until I took the car on the highway in the last week.

Anyway, I took it back to the tire shop and they rebalanced both front wheels/tires for me for free. So problem resolved.

carcrazed · « **Reply #18 on:** June 13, 2016, 03:00:48 pm »

I'm a bit late to the post.
When I got mine used 3 years ago, I had the "shake" at 120kph. The tires were due to be replaced, so I got road force balancing done with the new tires. I noticed a few weights stuck on the inside of the rims (for balancing I guess?), and have not had the "shake" issue.
How many different places have you done the road force balancing? I would suggest trying a different place.
The place I went is Tires23 near the Pearson Airport. I'll prolly go there for my new set next year.

rrocket · « **Reply #19 on:** June 13, 2016, 05:10:03 pm »

Find out who's using the latest Hinter Road Force balancers. The newer Road Force Touch and Elite machines do this thing called "Force Matching" where the machine will tell the operator where to put the rims on the vehicle for the smoothest ride. It's more than just balancing...it frequently requires the tire to come off the rim and remounted.

You will need to find a very skilled shop who know how to use this capability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xRAK3mc790

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nswttgUKstk