Topic: What car have you been obsessing about today?

[Fobroader]

Here's a funny story about the shifting on the 911.....




The above map is to scale. So is the shift pattern.

Disclaimer - I like this car. A lot. After a weekend, I can go through gears in this car easier than Elizabeth Taylor went through husbands. Too soon?

Lets take a run through the gears.

Gears one through four are tight together, much like they should be on a four-speed gearbox. Only fifth seems to be in a different orbit. It's like they just stuck fifth gear into a 'box where only four had been before.

So let's look at that map.

First is in Beverly Hills. Nice place. Second is in Rolling Hills Estates. It's a nice place too, but it's going to take a while to get there. Just be patient. Third is all the way the hell back up in Hollywood. Don't worry, if you learned anything from your trip from Beverly Hills down to Rolling Hills, the trip back up should be a lot quicker. Fourth... fourth is in San Pedro. It's next to Rolling Hills Estates, but if you're not careful, you're going wind up back in Rolling Hills Estates and you're gonna have a problem. Rolling Hills and San Pedro are solid three wood apart. And much like the two cities themselves, what you can do in San Pedro, you can't get away with in Rolling Hills.

Now for fifth.

Fifth is in Upland. It's a hell of a long way to go. Much like Upland, the first time you go there, you start to wonder if you've gone too far, only to wind up there after you thought you couldn't possibly go any further east. A little blip of the throttle ensures you drop it into gear without a second thought.

Now comes the hard part.

Our 911's shift linkage is not self centering; once you're in Upland, it wants to stay in Upland. To get it back into fourth takes an act of faith. Upland to San Pedro. Pick the wrong exit and you wind up in Rolling Hills; you're going to pay. This is how I get there. I pull it out of fifth, and throw the lever west until it hits the stop above second. From there, I move it east, barely, until I think I'm over fourth and with a blip, I drop it into gear. Another blip to match the revs I hope are correct and then I let the clutch out and listen. A spike means I've gone to far and I'm in second and I'm going to have explaining to do. No spike means I'm right where I want to be and I just mash the throttle and revel in some flat six sound - I can also breath again.

  BWAHAHAHAHAHA....come on, Ive driven Ford Tempo and Dodge Neon manuals....cant be all that bad.

[rrocket]

^^They are better than a 915.  They have a) gated shifters b) real synchros.

Dude..I'm not kidding.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON from CTC who drove my 911 ground the gears.  Every. Single. One.  And these are guys who drove stickshifts their WHOLE life.

My car weighed 5 lbs less when they were done driving from all the grindage.

[blur911]

Only fifth seems to be in a different orbit. It's like they just stuck fifth gear into a 'box where only four had been before.

Fifth and reverse are kind of just stuck onto the end of the 'box.  They are in a separate case nearest the front of the car, the other 4 gears are in the center section of the box.

[Fobroader]

^^They are better than a 915.  They have a) gated shifters b) real synchros.

Dude..I'm not kidding.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON from CTC who drove my 911 ground the gears.  Every. Single. One.  And these are guys who drove stickshifts their WHOLE life.

My car weighed 5 lbs less when they were done driving from all the grindage.

OK, now Im officially intrigued....what year of 911s do I have to drive to experience this monstrosity?!?!?!?

[rrocket]

Oh...I forgot to mention you can also shift IN BETWEEN gears.  Like you can get the stick to go in between 1st and 3rd...a sort of no man's land.

[rrocket]

^^They are better than a 915.  They have a) gated shifters b) real synchros.

Dude..I'm not kidding.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON from CTC who drove my 911 ground the gears.  Every. Single. One.  And these are guys who drove stickshifts their WHOLE life.

My car weighed 5 lbs less when they were done driving from all the grindage.

OK, now Im officially intrigued....what year of 911s do I have to drive to experience this monstrosity?!?!?!?

Up to 1987.  The changed it in 1987.

There's a reason I've spent about $750+ to try and "modernize" the shifting in my 911.

1)First, I went to a big money gated shifter.  This was to try and prevent the infamous "money shift".  Pic is below.  $600

2) New shifter coupling bushing made of Delrin  http://thecouplerwhisperer.com/index.html  $45

3) New engine and tranny mounts.  Stiffer ClubSport versions.  $120

4) Various tranny fluids.

And everyone STILL ground the gears.

[Fobroader]

Oh...I forgot to mention you can also shift IN BETWEEN gears.  Like you can get the stick to go in between 1st and 3rd...a sort of no man's land.

What?!?!?!? How the frack is that even possible....like is it a neutral or grind??

[mmret]

Oh...I forgot to mention you can also shift IN BETWEEN gears.  Like you can get the stick to go in between 1st and 3rd...a sort of no man's land.

What?!?!?!? How the frack is that even possible....like is it a neutral or grind??

The funny part is that all it would take is a $5 gate to sort this all out.

[rrocket]

I can vouch for RR's 911. It was a disaster to drive.

Still loved it though

Actually, Vmango "got it" the quickest.  He only ground it a half dozen times or so. 

There is considerable skill driving these cars quickly.  Partly due to the shifting, partly due to the snap oversteer.  Blur911 has considerable skill to autocross these cars for sure.

The greatest compliment I ever received was from GiantDwarf who said something like "It was great fun watching you cane the $hit out of your 911.  I have lots of respect for the skill it takes to do that now knowing how hard they are to drive". 

 

[rrocket]

Oh...I forgot to mention you can also shift IN BETWEEN gears.  Like you can get the stick to go in between 1st and 3rd...a sort of no man's land.

What?!?!?!? How the frack is that even possible....like is it a neutral or grind??

The funny part is that all it would take is a $5 gate to sort this all out.

If only it were that simple.  You can't add $hit to the stock shifter.  New...or learn to love the old.

[Fobroader]

I can vouch for RR's 911. It was a disaster to drive.

Still loved it though

Actually, Vmango "got it" the quickest.  He only ground it a half dozen times or so. 

There is considerable skill driving these cars quickly.  Partly due to the shifting, partly due to the snap oversteer.  Blur911 has considerable skill to autocross these cars for sure.

The greatest compliment I ever received was from GiantDwarf who said something like "It was great fun watching you cane the $hit out of your 911.  I have lots of respect for the skill it takes to do that now knowing how hard they are to drive". 

 

I know about the snap oversteer....probably manny a yuppie 80's stockbroker in an early grave because of these. So whats the solution, G50 or whatever swap??

[mmret]

Oh...I forgot to mention you can also shift IN BETWEEN gears.  Like you can get the stick to go in between 1st and 3rd...a sort of no man's land.

What?!?!?!? How the frack is that even possible....like is it a neutral or grind??

The funny part is that all it would take is a $5 gate to sort this all out.

If only it were that simple.  You can't add $hit to the stock shifter.  New...or learn to love the old.

Not for you, I meant $5 for Porsche in the engineering phase.

[rrocket]

Oh...I forgot to mention you can also shift IN BETWEEN gears.  Like you can get the stick to go in between 1st and 3rd...a sort of no man's land.

What?!?!?!? How the frack is that even possible....like is it a neutral or grind??

The funny part is that all it would take is a $5 gate to sort this all out.

If only it were that simple.  You can't add $hit to the stock shifter.  New...or learn to love the old.

Not for you, I meant $5 for Porsche in the engineering phase.

Yea.  There's a story behind it.  Porsche wanted to do the tranny all by themselves instead of outsourcing to a known tranny builder IIRC.

The 915 was the result.  LOL

[rrocket]

So whats the solution, G50 or whatever swap??

Learn to live with it...and try and make it better.

It IS pretty rewarding once you get it right.

You have to get used to it and really learn to drive the car..to "feel" the car.  It's definitely a "feel" car.  No power steering, un-boosted brakes.  Steering feel is superb BTW.  The best I've ever driven IMO.

[blur911]

Last month I was at Shannonville running an autocross, I shifted up to 3rd, down to 2nd and then up to 3rd...... didn't happen, stuck in 2nd.  Finished my run like that, coudn't take it out of 2nd gear.  Shifter was not binding as far as I could see.
Decided to take a leisurely evening drive along secondary highways home, 2nd gear at 3400rpm is about 60kph or so (yup, can hit 120kph indicated in 2nd gear before the rev limiter kicks in)
At a red light in Napanee I stopped and took it out of gear...  wait, it's working now.  Been fine since.
I figured a "dog tooth" got jarred loose from laying in the bottom of the gearbox (they will be there in a 915, they are what actually grind or break when you "grind gears") when I checked out the rhubarb on my previous run and got caught in the shifting mechanism  somehow.

It's not so much about missing shifts and getting the wrong gear, it's that the synchros are slow and wear out.  When they don't synchronize the speeds in time, dog-teeth grind on slider rings and make expensive noises.  First gear gets used the most so wears out first, downshifts are the worst so heel-n-toe double-clutching downshifts become the norm if shifting at speed into 1st gear.  Then 2nd gear starts grinding unless you engage it a little slower than you know you can.

The rattly shifter is another matter.

[blur911]

Oh...I forgot to mention you can also shift IN BETWEEN gears.  Like you can get the stick to go in between 1st and 3rd...a sort of no man's land.

What?!?!?!? How the frack is that even possible....like is it a neutral or grind??

The funny part is that all it would take is a $5 gate to sort this all out.

If only it were that simple.  You can't add $hit to the stock shifter.  New...or learn to love the old.

Not for you, I meant $5 for Porsche in the engineering phase.

Yea.  There's a story behind it.  Porsche wanted to do the tranny all by themselves instead of outsourcing to a known tranny builder IIRC.

The 915 was the result.  LOL

The 915 was fairly advanced when it came out, but then Borg Warner patented a much better design synchro which just about everybody forked over the money for and switched to.  Porsche kept making their own design which quickly became not so advanced.  The G50 uses the Borg Warner design IIRC.

[rrocket]

They make a "cheap" gated shifter upgrade now, eh? $250.  This would cure the sloppiness for you for sorta minimal cash outlay..

http://thecouplerwhisperer.com/6.html

[blur911]

They make a "cheap" gated shifter upgrade now, eh? $250.  This would cure the sloppiness for you for sorta minimal cash outlay..

http://thecouplerwhisperer.com/6.html

I'm so used to the shifter now I hardly care. 

I do need to put my spare gearbox back together, but there is a crack between 2 bearing bores in the center section, don't know if it would be really bad to go ahead and reassemble, but I want to have a look for a housing first and replace it if I can.
Busted dog-teeth and worn sychros trump rattly shifters.

[rrocket]

They make a "cheap" gated shifter upgrade now, eh? $250.  This would cure the sloppiness for you for sorta minimal cash outlay..

http://thecouplerwhisperer.com/6.html

I'm so used to the shifter now I hardly care. 

I do need to put my spare gearbox back together, but there is a crack between 2 bearing bores in the center section, don't know if it would be really bad to go ahead and reassemble, but I want to have a look for a housing first and replace it if I can.
Busted dog-teeth and worn sychros trump rattly shifters.

Do you know precisely which components in the transmission would benefit from WPC treatment?  It makes things VERY, very slick.

[blur911]

They make a "cheap" gated shifter upgrade now, eh? $250.  This would cure the sloppiness for you for sorta minimal cash outlay..

http://thecouplerwhisperer.com/6.html

I'm so used to the shifter now I hardly care. 

I do need to put my spare gearbox back together, but there is a crack between 2 bearing bores in the center section, don't know if it would be really bad to go ahead and reassemble, but I want to have a look for a housing first and replace it if I can.
Busted dog-teeth and worn sychros trump rattly shifters.

Do you know precisely which components in the transmission would benefit from WPC treatment?  It makes things VERY, very slick.

Too slick is not good in this case, the synchros actually need more friction to work better and quicker.  There seem to be lots of products for the shifter, but it's still the same synchros making for the grinding  (unless you actually grabbed the wrong gear, then that's a different problem)

BTW,  my shifter can't get lost in space between 1st and 3rd.  I believe there's a section in the service manual about internal shift fork setup so that there isn't any gaps like that.  Not accessible to me at the moment though, gotta work in the morning.