Topic: Here’s why you want a new car and not a used one

[ArticSteve]

Why are you leaving out the tire tax (Enviro Fee) ?

As with the OMVIC charge, nobody blinks over that and the Enviro Fee.

However, for the purposes of this discussion those are additional "Dealer Fees".  Hence when the Toyota site indicates the possibility of additional "Dealer Fees" those are two of them.  The big ones are the Protector Pluses and the anti Rust BS.  Our BM attempts to flog the anti rust module.  It's so sick. 

[tooscoops]

we don't have that on our bills of sale... as i mentioned before, it's a fee that gets charged to every car, but does not need to show up on a bill of sale, so we don't put it there... i'd prefer if none of the other charges show up (friehgt, ac tax, etc.) so i'm happy that the tire tax doesn't show up...

the gov't just wants the money... omvic wants to make sure it shows up so that the customer has an introduction to who they are.

i think with toyota, as you said, dealer fees would be the couple things we mentioned... but the 399 might be considered "value added", so they could be allowed (by toyota), correct? in that case, i guess it is still an option that the purchaser can refuse... but the dealer also can refuse to sell it without and due to the previous negotiating, they have not broken any rules...

.. but pissed off people for sure.

[ArticSteve]

we don't have that on our bills of sale... as i mentioned before, it's a fee that gets charged to every car, but does not need to show up on a bill of sale, so we don't put it there


you type it in.  The enviro fee is approx. $30 so that's $30 coming out of your end.  PPL are totally used to getting hosed by the Ontario government on these tire and oil disposal taxes so there are zero objections to this charge.

i think with toyota, as you said, dealer fees would be the couple things we mentioned... but the 399 might be considered "value added", so they could be allowed (by toyota), correct? in that case, i guess it is still an option that the purchaser can refuse... but the dealer also can refuse to sell it without and due to the previous negotiating, they have not broken any rules...

The "$399." is considered a product/service that is optional.  Same as the Omvic and Enviro Fee.  ALL OPTIONAL!    All fall into the category as "Additional Fees".  NOT mandatory fees and certainly not an "Admin Fee" which is completely intangible.

[tooscoops]

i had thought the omvic fee had to show up on the bos... just looked it up and it doesn't... so i guess we might as well be typing in the tire tax as you said, like the omvic fee! so dumb.... these days we work backwards with the prices anyways... we'd still charge the same 18995... like we did when we had a standard admin. the current way at least it looks like the smallest loss possible!

but how are those fees a product or service that is optional? it MUST be charged to each vehicle... so while the customer can "refuse" to pay it, it still has to be paid by someone... and they are still getting the benefit whether they need it, want it, or like it. i just don't understand how that is not mandatory... omvic had this to say about their fee...

While dealers must remit a $5 transaction fee per vehicle, passing the fee on to customers is optional, not mandatory. OMVIC does not anticipate customers will refuse to pay the $5.

The Automobile Protection Association, the Consumers Council of Canada and Car Help Canada are all consumer organizations representing consumer interests.

All three organizations are supportive of the transaction fee even if a dealer chooses to pass the cost on to a consumer. Each organization is interested in maximizing consumer protection through regulatory and public education initiatives. So that your customers understand the benefits of a regulated industry, we encourage you to direct them to our website, www.omvic.on.ca

so nice of these places to just add fees to our end that are for the final customer, not the dealer... so we look like asses either way! heh... ah well. uphill battle anyway!

[rrocket]

i had thought the omvic fee had to show up on the bos... just looked it up and it doesn't... so i guess we might as well be typing in the tire tax as you said, like the omvic fee! so dumb.... these days we work backwards with the prices anyways... we'd still charge the same 18995... like we did when we had a standard admin. the current way at least it looks like the smallest loss possible!

but how are those fees a product or service that is optional? it MUST be charged to each vehicle... so while the customer can "refuse" to pay it, it still has to be paid by someone... and they are still getting the benefit whether they need it, want it, or like it. i just don't understand how that is not mandatory... omvic had this to say about their fee...

There is ZERO benefit to the consumer for paying the OMVIC fee.  ZERO.

[tooscoops]

while i hate omvic, that's like saying there is ZERO benefit to insurance. just because you (hope to) never use it, doesn't mean it serves no purpose.

omvic sure as hell isn't here for the dealers... so why should we pay it? just so buyers don't have to? well that makes perfect sense [/sarcasm]

customers want to pay what we pay for cars(which the numbers are available for them)... the new thing is to refuse any admin/additional fee... now we can't get customers to pay (what WE pay) for a service that is for them and is mandatory? how is our overhead supposed to ever get covered, let alone make a profit?

i always feel bad trying to argue on behalf of a dealership, because i really would love to see some of the same things everyone else would... but from a business standpoint, it just makes ZERO sense.

[wing]

What does it provide to the consumer?

[tooscoops]

this always happens... i'm not trying to justify the 399 or whatever they charge.. i'm trying to justify (or not sometimes!) the way it is handled and the way it is perceived.

as for "why (i) can't...  just say it's a business and it's a tactic..." i think i did in my last post, did i not? everyone likes to attempt to read between the lines in my posts, but we couldn't in the case of this?

how is our overhead supposed to ever get covered, let alone make a profit

the omvic fee goes to camvap. http://www.camvap.ca/ so that is how it benefits the customer. those little bits from every car sold goes into a big ole pile to help compensate people who are in a situation that can not be remedied by the parties involved in the deal.

i could just say it's a tactic, but how is covering a cost a "tactic"? do i have to justify charging more than we paid for the car?.. no.. because that is assumed or why would the business exist. so why should a fee mandatory in ontario be any different? it's just an added cost.. gets added to both the dealer cost and customer price side of the equation... we aren't increasing the profit by charging 5 dollars... we are covering the 5 dollar charge incurred.

and keep in mind, this is only on the omvic charge.. the additional fee of 399 you are talking about is something different... it is to increase margin (usually as stated by others, in the 50-75% margin of the charge)... but the point that i always argue... say the car was negotiated to 20 grand including the fee and you are happy with the price... would you prefer to pay 20 grand and get the etching, nitro, whatever or just 20 grand and that's it?

that is the point i'm trying to make... when the negotiated price is done with it's wiggle room, it is to include ALL dealer added fees. as long as that is the case and nothing gets added after, i don't care if they had a 1200 fee for photocopies in there... the price is what you wanted, they have operated within the rules and laws applicable, and as long as you aren't a bad shopper, you got a final price that is as good or better than elsewhere.

so what is the big deal?

[Solstice2006]

must be a slow day at the dealership.... 

[tooscoops]

yeah, friday mornings are fun!...

i don't know why i bother with these conversations really... because as i said, i HATE fees... so i'm "defending" something i don't like and don't do.

i feel like there are a few businesses like this one, where the customer always thinks they know more about the process than the people who do it for a living. if it was as easy, dealers make money hand over fist, and you (not anyone in particular!) know more than any person who has devoted a life to this business, why wouldn't you start a dealership?

[wing]

I would but I'm missing the couple of million to start it

[tooscoops]

but hey, even if it was so simple, why wouldn't every millionaire own dealership(s)? few want to do it, and the ones that do have to get a whole bunch before they make enough to be a worthwhile investment...

[johngenx]

know more than any person who has devoted a life to this business, why wouldn't you start a dealership?

Terrible argument.  Just because I don't own a dealership or want to, doesn't mean I don't have expertise in assessing the business model.  When I was in consulting I tore apart and put back together all sorts of businesses I had no intention of owning.  I applied universal principles that were adapted to individual situations to solve problems - many of them systemic.

The most common phrase management would use when I questioned policies?  "Because it's always been done that way."

[tooscoops]

know more than any person who has devoted a life to this business, why wouldn't you start a dealership?

Terrible argument.  Just because I don't own a dealership or want to, doesn't mean I don't have expertise in assessing the business model.  When I was in consulting I tore apart and put back together all sorts of businesses I had no intention of owning.  I applied universal principles that were adapted to individual situations to solve problems - many of them systemic.

The most common phrase management would use when I questioned policies?  "Because it's always been done that way."

again, not an actual invitation to start a dealership... things i type (and everyone else) are not literal statements every time.

the auto business for better or worse (usually worse) is not like any other business... sure there will always be some similarities to other businesses, but many things that work in other systems will not work here. your statement is saying that knowing the industry you are consulting in is not at all a positive thing... is that the way you honestly feel?

my statement was and still is, if you sell your product at a loss, and that is NOT taking into consideration overhead, the business will not work. i'd like to hear how you'd consult out of that.

also, people on here are not assessing the business model.. they are assessing the assumed model that they have imagined and is nothing like the reality

[ArticSteve]

the auto business for better or worse (usually worse) is not like any other business

 

Yes, a horrible nickel and dime business.

The business model is very close to a REIT with a few twists.

Keep on, keeping on, 2 Scoopes!

[tooscoops]

well thanks for saying that!

i'm just a realist...

you would think a guy who loves cars, loves dealing with people, has both honours diplomas and degrees in business, has every advantage of being from a dealership family would be ideal for this job... but the expectation of the customer and the unreal business practice of the dealership and factory make it damn hard for anyone to make this work... hence why you usually don't talk to a guy like me at the dealer... you get the drop out guys who know nothing....

ah well

[2JDM]

well thanks for saying that!

i'm just a realist...

you would think a guy who loves cars, loves dealing with people, has both honours diplomas and degrees in business, has every advantage of being from a dealership family would be ideal for this job... but the expectation of the customer and the unreal business practice of the dealership and factory make it damn hard for anyone to make this work... hence why you usually don't talk to a guy like me at the dealer... you get the drop out guys who know nothing....

ah well

Let me know when you start selling Subarus. 

[ArticSteve]

loves dealing with people

OK, there is your Achilles' heel right there. 

[aquadorhj]

loves dealing with people

OK, there is your Achilles' heel right there.

From Arctic's wisdom, you gotta be an anti-social a-hole to work in a dealership...   hence their low reputations. 

[rrocket]

this always happens... i'm not trying to justify the 399 or whatever they charge.. i'm trying to justify (or not sometimes!) the way it is handled and the way it is perceived.

as for "why (i) can't...  just say it's a business and it's a tactic..." i think i did in my last post, did i not? everyone likes to attempt to read between the lines in my posts, but we couldn't in the case of this?

how is our overhead supposed to ever get covered, let alone make a profit

the omvic fee goes to camvap. http://www.camvap.ca/ so that is how it benefits the customer. those little bits from every car sold goes into a big ole pile to help compensate people who are in a situation that can not be remedied by the parties involved in the deal.

i could just say it's a tactic, but how is covering a cost a "tactic"? do i have to justify charging more than we paid for the car?.. no.. because that is assumed or why would the business exist. so why should a fee mandatory in ontario be any different? it's just an added cost.. gets added to both the dealer cost and customer price side of the equation... we aren't increasing the profit by charging 5 dollars... we are covering the 5 dollar charge incurred.

and keep in mind, this is only on the omvic charge.. the additional fee of 399 you are talking about is something different... it is to increase margin (usually as stated by others, in the 50-75% margin of the charge)... but the point that i always argue... say the car was negotiated to 20 grand including the fee and you are happy with the price... would you prefer to pay 20 grand and get the etching, nitro, whatever or just 20 grand and that's it?

that is the point i'm trying to make... when the negotiated price is done with it's wiggle room, it is to include ALL dealer added fees. as long as that is the case and nothing gets added after, i don't care if they had a 1200 fee for photocopies in there... the price is what you wanted, they have operated within the rules and laws applicable, and as long as you aren't a bad shopper, you got a final price that is as good or better than elsewhere.

so what is the big deal?

OMVIC does nothing. I had an issue with an OMVIC dealer. Lodged a complaint. Guess who OMVIC sided with almost immediately? Me...or the dealer that pays them several hundred dollars a year in fees?

OMVIC is not only toothless, but borders on a consumer scam.