Topic: 2014 Rav4, CR-V or Escape

[Fobroader]

What makes the Forrester good?  Sorry - might be a dumb question.

nothing special really....Subarus are just like VWs, there are people that love them and will only buy them and will only say positive things about them.
But to be fair...their AWD is the best in this segment but unless you are an off-roader, it won't make a difference.

Yeah, but unlike VWs, Subarus are reliable. You do not need to go "offroad" to exploit the Subies AWD, any icy street or deep snow will show you why its a much better system than the lame slip and grip systems the competition employs. They are tough, well built and keep their value.

[ipolski]

I think you can't buy a "bad" vehicle in this category.  They all are very similar in size/capability/price, each offers some + and - in comparison to the other, it's mostly a personal choice.  And the real choice will be ironed out during a test drive, and test drive you must, with intended primary driver behind the wheel.  When we were looking for our Passat wagon replacement, I though the Rav4/CRV were a lock, but my significant other didn't even take any for a test drive.  Neither felt "right" just by sitting in them (strangely, she liked Venza...). 
You are intending to keep the vehicle for a long time, make sure you find a right one, work out the details later.

[blotter]

NOTO covered Subaru and the Forester very well.
Bravo!


So we're going a little bigger for safety and the desire for a higher driving position.

NOTO (again) is right...... check out the Subaru Crosstrek
it looks like the vehicle is mainly driving back and forth, so if epic road trips, camping or anything else that regularly requires tons of cargo space..... something like the Crosstrek will be great.

As Sir O has shown us, for AWD, it's got pretty great fuel economy.  The size seems just right and being a hatch has lots of versitility for days you need a bit of cargo space.

My wife is small as well.  She always wants to drive something small (and cute).
She never liked the RAV (size) but when we had a 1999 Forester, she LOVED it.   While it's a decent size rig and it the RAV was about the same size, she loved the visibility out of the Forester.  She felt insanely safe.
We had no issue with the Subaru until the final year we owned it and that was at year 10.   
It was to be expected though, I gave it some serious beat downs on snow covered roads, gravel and some soft offroading.   It kept us going on epic trips all loaded up.   I made it tow more than it ever should when we moved.   

I think of of the Crosstrek as a mini version of the Forester in terms of it's use!
So if you don't need the massive cargo capacity of the Forester, check out the Crosstrek!

[EV-Light]

I think you can't buy a "bad" vehicle in this category.  They all are very similar in size/capability/price, each offers some + and - in comparison to the other, it's mostly a personal choice.  And the real choice will be ironed out during a test drive, and test drive you must, with intended primary driver behind the wheel.  When we were looking for our Passat wagon replacement, I though the Rav4/CRV were a lock, but my significant other didn't even take any for a test drive.  Neither felt "right" just by sitting in them (strangely, she liked Venza...). 
You are intending to keep the vehicle for a long time, make sure you find a right one, work out the details later.

The Venza is actually a vehicle to consider...Toyota has 3k on the hood for the AWD version, it might just be enough to attract more people to it.

[blotter]

the Venza was on our "alternative list" if we didn't get a truck but I took it off pretty quick due to the 20 inch freaking wheels.   

[tooscoops]

there are a lot of good cars in the segment...

the stresses you are getting from this shopping is that you keep "settling" on a decision, only to overturn it a few weeks later! keep the options open...

let's not forget... you started off wanting a higher mileage used escape or a new elantra... then a new avenger... then a civic... then a patriot/compass... then a  rav4... then a cherokee... then a high km camry/accord... now crv/rav4/escape...

http://www.autos.ca/car-comparisons/comparison-test-compact-crossover-suvs/ that is the review you want. the car option i don't think is what you want from all the threads and posts i have read of yours. cherokee and escape both are valid contenders as well.

in the end, all these cars are decent in a different way. the worst in the group might still be a better value or better fit for you and you won't have really gone wrong.

as a salesperson, i can tell you that you are going too far with each model you are considering before having to go back to the drawing board. rather than compare a car or two all the way to payments, look at them all and start crossing ones off the list til you have a short list... THEN get into the pricing/payments stuff.

[ipolski]

the Venza was on our "alternative list" if we didn't get a truck but I took it off pretty quick due to the 20 inch freaking wheels.   

Yup, I think it's silly.  And that ugly dash.....

[ipolski]

there are a lot of good cars in the segment...

the stresses you are getting from this shopping is that you keep "settling" on a decision, only to overturn it a few weeks later! keep the options open...

let's not forget... you started off wanting a higher mileage used escape or a new elantra... then a new avenger... then a civic... then a patriot/compass... then a  rav4... then a cherokee... then a high km camry/accord... now crv/rav4/escape...

http://www.autos.ca/car-comparisons/comparison-test-compact-crossover-suvs/ that is the review you want. the car option i don't think is what you want from all the threads and posts i have read of yours. cherokee and escape both are valid contenders as well.

in the end, all these cars are decent in a different way. the worst in the group might still be a better value or better fit for you and you won't have really gone wrong.

as a salesperson, i can tell you that you are going too far with each model you are considering before having to go back to the drawing board. rather than compare a car or two all the way to payments, look at them all and start crossing ones off the list til you have a short list... THEN get into the pricing/payments stuff.

Perfectly said.   

[blotter]

as a salesperson, i can tell you that you are going too far with each model you are considering before having to go back to the drawing board. rather than compare a car or two all the way to payments, look at them all and start crossing ones off the list til you have a short list... THEN get into the pricing/payments stuff.

great advice here!

make out your list and get it down to 4 vehicles.   At that point get into the pricing which will help take more off the list.    (and the Cherokee!  of course, sorry I forgot about that one)


on a side note, the only thing Subaru may not get you is the long term financing.   I don't believe they offer more than 60 months. (72 max - if they do)

[Noto]

the Venza was on our "alternative list" if we didn't get a truck but I took it off pretty quick due to the 20 inch freaking wheels.   

Again, Venza is a wide-as$-motha-f*cka.  Lady Harpster will not like driving it.

Look, if somenoe wants an alternative to a Subaru fanboi's argument, I think the Rav4 will 'work'.  I think the CRV will be more expensive than it should be, but will 'work' (and likely have better fuel economy and a more compliant ride than the Rav4).  I think the Tiguan would fit the bill nicely, but will be expensive (to buy and to maintain).  I think the CX-5 will be too wide, the Outlander too big (and who buys a Mitsubishi any way? ) and the RVR too crappy and dated.  I think the Cherokee could work, but 1) I can't recommend anything with the 9-speed auto to anyone, and 2) its outward visibility isn't top notch (but not the worst, either).

I do think the Cherokee would fit the bill better than the Forester.

Harpster, take one day and test drive all of these back-to-back:
1) Toyota Rav4 LE AWD
2) Honda CRV EX AWD
3) Subaru Crosstrek Touring CVT
4) Jeep Cherokee __________ (tooscoops, fill in the blank!)

Don't test drive any more than those.  Afterwards, see if there is one that you love.  If not, choose which attributes you liked about each and see if there is one that fits the bill the nicest.

Blindly saying "what should we get?" doesn't help narrow, and you were right to ask about the Escape, but I don't think it's going to work well for your lady given her preferences.  Again, I may be over-sensitive to people who are involved in car accidents, but it's no joke.  Many really feel like driving a tank is the only way they feel comfortable at all in a car after the fact.

[EV-Light]

Here's a revised list:

1) Toyota Rav4 XLE AWD
2) Honda CRV EX AWD
3) Ford Escape Titanium
4) Toyota Venza base AWD
5) Jeep Cherokee Limited
6) Subaru Forester Touring

[blotter]

Here's a revised list:

1) Toyota Rav4 LE AWD
2) Honda CRV EX AWD
3) Ford Escape Titanium
4) Toyota Venza AWD
4) Jeep Cherokee Limited

what's with the Subie hate?
(it's no Fiat!)

[EV-Light]

Here's a revised list:

1) Toyota Rav4 LE AWD
2) Honda CRV EX AWD
3) Ford Escape Titanium
4) Toyota Venza AWD
4) Jeep Cherokee Limited

what's with the Subie hate?
(it's no Fiat!)

my mistake...edited above.

[johngenx]

and to be fair...their AWD is the best in this segment but unless you are an off-roader, it won't make a difference.

Disagree completely.  The beauty of the Scoob AWD is how much more enjoyable it makes on-road driving.  It's not an "off-road" system ala Jeep or many pick ups.  Their systems are all about driving on roads and poor roads bring out the best in it.  Driving our Forester on dry pavement is much more enjoyable than most FWD cars (save perhaps for a few very performance oriented models) thanks to the system engaging the rear wheels and allowing the car to be neutral and throttle steerable.

Women seem to love Toyota products.  My missus hits a Toyota showroom and sees all kinds of things that she likes.  The Venza, the Highlander, the Corolla, the RAV, Camry.  She gets behind the wheel and she can see herself driving most of what they sell save for the FJ and FR-S.  With women making more than 50% of the car buying decisions, it's no wonder Toyota sells a lot of stuff.  Most women I know are the same.

I like the new RAV, but I prefer the Forester and Crosstrek.  Subaru dealers suck big time here meaning I'd have a tough time buying new ($3K+ in fees?  Really?) but I'd buy a nearly new used unit in a heart-beat.

[Serniter]

The no stress decision would be to do what Tauri13 suggested: get a '14 Rav4. Reliable, good dealer support, and easy to resell if you need to. These aren't auto enthusiast considerations, but when you're looking to finance long term, you want a vehicle that holds (perceived) value.
 
FWIW, here's my list: 

1) Toyota Rav4
2) Honda CRV
3) Subaru Forester
4) Mazda CX-5
5) Ford Escape

Was there a request for AWD?  If not, the trim that best suits your need/budget.

[EV-Light]

and to be fair...their AWD is the best in this segment but unless you are an off-roader, it won't make a difference.

Disagree completely.  The beauty of the Scoob AWD is how much more enjoyable it makes on-road driving.  It's not an "off-road" system ala Jeep or many pick ups.  Their systems are all about driving on roads and poor roads bring out the best in it.  Driving our Forester on dry pavement is much more enjoyable than most FWD cars (save perhaps for a few very performance oriented models) thanks to the system engaging the rear wheels and allowing the car to be neutral and throttle steerable.

Women seem to love Toyota products.  My missus hits a Toyota showroom and sees all kinds of things that she likes.  The Venza, the Highlander, the Corolla, the RAV, Camry.  She gets behind the wheel and she can see herself driving most of what they sell save for the FJ and FR-S.  With women making more than 50% of the car buying decisions, it's no wonder Toyota sells a lot of stuff.  Most women I know are the same.

I like the new RAV, but I prefer the Forester and Crosstrek.  Subaru dealers suck big time here meaning I'd have a tough time buying new ($3K+ in fees?  Really?) but I'd buy a nearly new used unit in a heart-beat.

here...AMCI conducted an interesting testing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orysh1VuueU

[Noto]

The no stress decision would be to do what Tauri13 suggested: get a '14 Rav4. Reliable, good dealer support, and easy to resell if you need to.

First, let me say that my list of cars to drive was in no particular order.  I limited my list to only 4 cars because more than that in one day is exhausting and will not be helpful.

Also, I think things are getting a little too 'big' for what Harpster originally stated.  It's replacing an Elantra NOT because they need larger, but because it was totalled in a rear-ender and she wants to sit up higher for a feeling of safety.  In other words, she is looking for a 'safer' car.  I would argue that safety is sort of the priority, and on that basis, there is some detraction from the benefit of the Rav4 given its IIHS showings.  Even after the IIHS gave Toyota a break to "make last minute changes for the small-overlap test", it failed MISERABLY.  Sure, it's just one test, but I would argue that the others that perform better are safer all-around cars given that most accidents do not occur identically to lab-simulated tests. 

In any event, I'm not trying to be a proponent for any one brand.  We have discussed the issue of a FWD CUV far too much and I'm pretty sure we almost all universally agreed that for resale reasons alone, they make no sense.  With that being said, we know the driver of this new vehicle is "short", is used to an Elantra (though won't drive a Hyundai product again so the Tucson is out), and wants a CUV.  I think putting in the Venza, Forester, and CX-5 are not in her better interest given their sizes (or width, which make them drive larger than one would be used to).  The Elantra's dimensions are:
178" long
69.9" wide

The CX-5, on the other hand:
178.7" long (good)
72.4" wide (bad)

Crosstrek:
175.2" long
70.1" wide

While ya'll can argue that 2.3" isn't much, I beg to differ.  ...and as for the Venza:
189" long
75.0" wide

Let's drop that thought right...meow.  Thanks.

Like I said, the Escape, which is the original question in this thread, is a good option.  By size, it's the perfect CUV step-up.  My concern is for outward visibility, relative safety, and relative reliability.  Also, given the vehicle's intended use (commuter <10km each way), the 2.0T will use a lot of gas and the 1.6T is plagued with reliability issues as described herein.  I think it should be considered, but I don't think it fits the bill.  Imagine paying for maintenance/repairs once the vehicle is out of warranty AND you're still paying monthly for finance payments!  Fricken OUCH.  I mean, you'll get that with any car, but I somehow doubt that 7 recalls in one year will just 'go away'.

I've tried to be neutral in all of this and not point in any one direction.  In MY opinion, the Crosstrek is a great 'step-up-to-CUV' size and will fit the bill otherwise.  I think the Rav4 is a decent choice as well, and the CRV keeps earning high 5s from auto journalists this year after it got a new powertrain.  So, those are my top 3 choices.  I added in the Cherokee because the interior is really well executed and the size is good.  I don't like the 9-speed, but tooscoops may have a point about "learned" behaviours and I could be wrong.

So, I don't care which 4 you testdrive, Harpster, but choose 4, don't buy that day, and come back and report about what you think

/rant.

[johngenx]

here...AMCI conducted an interesting testing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orysh1VuueU

That test has nothing to do with off-roading, and perhaps reinforces that these AWD systems are great for using on roads.

Toyota's slip/grip is great in a straight line, but I don't like the feel when cornering as there's no power to the rear wheels unless the fronts are slipping.

HOWEVER, that's changing, and I suspect it's thanks to their marriage to Subaru.  The newest RAV and Highlander systems are slip/grip, but altered significantly in that they now apply rear power not only when the fronts slip, but also during cornering and on-throttle periods, much more like Subaru's system.

[EV-Light]

here...AMCI conducted an interesting testing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orysh1VuueU

That test has nothing to do with off-roading, and perhaps reinforces that these AWD systems are great for using on roads.

Toyota's slip/grip is great in a straight line, but I don't like the feel when cornering as there's no power to the rear wheels unless the fronts are slipping.

HOWEVER, that's changing, and I suspect it's thanks to their marriage to Subaru.  The newest RAV and Highlander systems are slip/grip, but altered significantly in that they now apply rear power not only when the fronts slip, but also during cornering and on-throttle periods, much more like Subaru's system.

that's exactly what I said...on-road there won't be any significant difference between the systems. Toyota and Ford can do the same trick that Subaru does but using electronics....Toyota probably learned it from Subaru and Ford definitely learned it from Land Rover, as the Evoque and Escape share the AWD design

[Noto]

here...AMCI conducted an interesting testing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orysh1VuueU

*calm meditating*
issues with the above video:
1) OEM all-season tires.
2) maximum '0.5s' difference.
3) driver seemingly 'flooring it'. 

I mean, whether floored or not, they clearly were trying to see which could accelerate faster.  The test was inherently the most moronic way to drive on ice.

I don't doubt that the Venza's AWD system is capable, but that test determines very, very little, and in fact, is irresponsible IMO.

As stated by john, Toyota has significantly updated its AWD systems and now it's always 90:10 (i.e. the rears are always engaged on start), but other than accelerating, Subaru's 60:40 system will be more planted and predictable.