Author Topic: Ford engine manufacture contract moves to Mexico, leaves Windsor in the dust.  (Read 14367 times)

Offline Noto

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 13563
  • Carma: +774/-2131
  • This forum is making me almost as bitter as SirO
    • View Profile
  • Cars: '23 Mazda CX-50 Turbo; '11 Fozzie XT

Offline Scarecrow

  • Auto Obsessed
  • ***
  • Posts: 928
  • Carma: +41/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Cars on the brain
    • View Profile
  • Cars: Mazda6, Mazda MX-5 Miata (sold), Shelby 427S/C Cobra, Triumph Tiger 750
Let the blamestorming begin!!

But it seems to me that Ford never really had very serious plans to make this investment in Windsor.  Not sure I would blame the provincial and federal governments for expecting some commitments from Ford in exchange for oodles and oodles of public, taxpayers' dollars either.
"Anyone who drives faster than you is a Maniac,
and anyone who drives slower is an Idiot." - George Carlin

Offline Noto

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 13563
  • Carma: +774/-2131
  • This forum is making me almost as bitter as SirO
    • View Profile
  • Cars: '23 Mazda CX-50 Turbo; '11 Fozzie XT
I believe the government's argument was, "you're asking us to pay you to 'create' jobs in Canada."  It wasn't about asking for reduced taxes or something, but "give us money to subsidize staying in Canada."  In other words, if you want the jobs here, pay for them yourself.

It was kind of a d!ck move that was loaded to fail from the beginning.

Offline blotter

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5008
  • Carma: +92/-128
  • Gender: Male
  • member
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2014 Taco
totally agree with the two of you.

sadly it's a race to the bottom as companies let countries (even states) fight each other as to how much to give away.

Offline Snowman

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 38392
  • Carma: +702/-1347
  • Gender: Male
  • “It’s never crowded along the extra mile.”
    • View Profile
  • Cars: Cars: 2012 Audi TT-RS. 2011 Toyota Venza AWD.2004 Honda S2000 Bikes: Giant Defy Avdvanced 0. Giant Talon 29 "hardtail"
Fack Ford, not going to pay them with my taxes.

Offline KD

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 11363
  • Carma: +359/-263
  • Gender: Male
  • member
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2017 Frontier Pro-4X, 2013 Lexus GS-350
NAFTA was very bad idea imo... :thumbdown:  The sucking sound is getting louder... :P
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 07:59:37 pm by KarlsDarwin »

Offline ArticSteve

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 27803
  • Carma: +310/-6811
    • View Profile
  • Cars: Hobby Car: 15 Mustang Vert, V6, manual, 3.55 lsd; 2024 MDX Aspec; 2022 F150 TREMOR lifted
At least I can afford to have some self respect and not buy any vehicle from Mexico.  I do buy their limes.  :run:

Fords' facked.  They only make money in the North America and only with their truck division/platforms.  Generally, their cars are sh*t.  Stock is so dead.  Market knows.  I don't think this cancelled Windsor plant is a tragedy because Ford might not make it.

Offline Scarecrow

  • Auto Obsessed
  • ***
  • Posts: 928
  • Carma: +41/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Cars on the brain
    • View Profile
  • Cars: Mazda6, Mazda MX-5 Miata (sold), Shelby 427S/C Cobra, Triumph Tiger 750
Interesting article from the Windsor Star, suggests that Canada was simply used to leverage bigger incentives from Mexico for the engine plant.

###

Ford investment never destined for Windsor, says government source
Grace Macaluso
Oct 24, 2014


Ford Motor Co., was never serious about investing at least $1.5 billion in a new engine program in Windsor, a government source suggested Friday.

Instead, Ford’s may have been using negotiations with Ottawa and Ontario to secure better terms from Mexico, which had been earmarked for the investment, the source said.

“They said, ‘Mexico has put a great deal on the table, but hey, Ontario, do you want a kick at the can?'” the source said. “We always knew we were the underdog here, but we did our best to make sure our commitment would be in the best interests of taxpayers.”

Over the last several weeks, Ford had been in talks with the two levels of government to invest at least $1.5 billion in its Windsor engine plants for global production of 1.5- and 1.6-litre engines that would go into such vehicles as the next-generation Ford Fiesta subcompact sedan. Ford has never confirmed it was in discussions with the two levels of government. However, Unifor, which represents 1,300 hourly workers at the Windsor and Essex Engine plants, has said the investment would have created up to 1,000 new direct jobs and secured the long-term future of the Windsor operations. It also would have meant the recall of more than 400 Ford workers on layoff.

Ford’s original proposal for Windsor’s engine plants “made the investment attractive: lots of jobs, research and development, establishing an Ontario supply chain,” the source said.

Although Ford’s funding request “was unprecedented,” the two levels of government were willing to work with the automaker because “the terms we started with represented a strong return on investment for taxpayers,” the source said. Ottawa and Ontario have traditionally contributed about 20 per cent of an automaker’s investment, and the source said Ford’s “ask was significantly above that level.”

As negotiations progressed, Ford officials kept changing the terms of their original proposal and dramatically reduced their commitments, the source said. For example, the number of net new jobs originally promised plunged by about 75 per cent, the source said. “The numbers really changed in terms of jobs, supply chain, research and development. There was a significant claw back in each area.”

The size of Ford’s funding request, however, did not change, the source said.

Michelle Lee-Gracey, a spokeswoman for the carmaker, refused comment, saying only, “We meet with government on a regular basis to discuss a variety of issues. We consider these discussions to be confidential.”

However, Bob Shanks, Ford Motor Co.’s chief financial officer, told Bloomberg Television Friday that the company was not taking investment away from Windsor.

“We can’t pull out something that was never going,” Shanks said. “So no, that’s not the case.”

Both union officials and Windsor Mayor Eddie Francis expressed disappointment, but insisted all parties did everything they could to bring the investment to the city.

Francis, who received confirmation of the bad news Friday, said the municipality offered $8.5 million in tax savings to Ford under its Community Improvement Plan. “From our city’s perspective, this is devastating news because those 1,000 jobs are not only good paying jobs, those are significant jobs, and certainly held a significant level of promise for the future.”

Jerry Dias, Unifor national president, said Ford came late to the table in Canada.

“The reality is this project was originally earmarked for Mexico and we were doing everything we could to bring it to Canada, but we couldn’t bring it over the finish line,” he said.

A disheartened Chris Taylor, president of Unifor Local 200, which represents local Ford workers, called the news “very, very devastating for our members and our community.”

Taylor said he had heard rumblings earlier this week that talks had gone awry, but received confirmation from his national union and Ford officials Thursday.

“As of right now, it’s not coming to Windsor,” he said. “The value to us was a future with a good product, jobs for the people on layoff and a bright light for a community that sorely needs good news.”

“As a local, we’re not going to bury our heads in the sand,” he added. “We have to have some discussion with the government to find out where this went sideways and decide how we progress going forward.”

Car companies have long been pressing Ontario and Ottawa to up their game in the global competition for automotive investment or continue watching vehicle assembly plants and jobs move to Mexico and the U.S. south. Some jurisdictions typically fund at least 60 per cent of a carmaker’s investment, while Ontario and Ottawa have covered a total of about 20 per cent through a combination of grants and low-cost loans.

Dias said Ford’s decision was a “done deal.” But, the Windsor-Essex Regional Chamber of Commerce urged all sides to return to the table.

“We’re urging all parties to give this one more chance and make it happen in Ontario,” said Matt Marchand, president and CEO of the Windsor-Essex Regional Chamber of Commerce.

“We have called for an automotive strategy for this very reason,” Marchand added. “Other jurisdictions have one, they have top talent executing them. And we need to adapt to the hyper-aggressive marketplace. The status quo is not working. Investment is flowing out of Ontario, and we need to reverse that.”

That concern was echoed by Ford of Canada president Dianne Craig Thursday at the Ontario Economic Summit in Niagara-on-the-Lake. According to Marchand, who was attending the summit, Craig said she was worried about Canada’s shrinking manufacturing sector. In the U.S., there has been a strategic decision to have auto investment, she said. “The supply base goes with the manufacturing base.”

But, both Ontario and the federal governments stressed Friday that financial incentives would have to meet their standards.

“Our government is committed to partnering with business in a fiscally responsible way, but we will not invest taxpayer dollars in any partnership that doesn’t provide a strong return for Ontarians,” Duguid said in a statement. “This includes creating good jobs, anchoring key facilities, building an industry supply chain, fostering research and development, and leveraging a larger investment from the private sector.”

Jake Enright, a spokesman for federal Industry Minister James Moore, said “after weeks of discussions, it was determined the terms laid out in Ford’s proposal was not in the best interests of Canadian taxpayers.”

gmacaluso@windsorstar.com

Offline Noto

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 13563
  • Carma: +774/-2131
  • This forum is making me almost as bitter as SirO
    • View Profile
  • Cars: '23 Mazda CX-50 Turbo; '11 Fozzie XT
I just find it amazing how the world supports the perpetual lower pay/employment standards in other countries.  We continue to buy products manufactured in China/Mexico because they're 'cheaper', but in reality, their workers are the ones taking the hit.  I mean, it's great that someone in Mexico gets a job because a job (crappy or not) is better than no job, but it's basically akin to saying "will suck d!ck for food."  While I'm happy to get a cheaper car, I'd rather it be cheaper because of no duty charged (i.e. Japanese cars built in the US) instead of buying a car built in Mexico with workers being paid ~$5/hour.

I, for one, will never buy a car manufactured in Mexico.  I was totally over my hatred for Ford, but this move definitely hurts my view of Ford again.

Trust me, if Subaru moved manufacturing to Mexico, my message would be the same.

Offline pi314

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 3738
  • Carma: +59/-95
    • View Profile
  • Cars: VW Golf Sportwagen 4Motion 6MT ;Dearly Departed 2015 Honda Fit EX 6MT
Well it's easy to vote with your wallet... buy cars manufactured in places you deem to have good labour standards...
Both my Corolla and Focus were manufactured in North America... Corolla in Ontario and Focus in Michigan

Offline EV-Light

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 8141
  • Carma: +125/-1490
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
I just find it amazing how the world supports the perpetual lower pay/employment standards in other countries.  We continue to buy products manufactured in China/Mexico because they're 'cheaper', but in reality, their workers are the ones taking the hit.  I mean, it's great that someone in Mexico gets a job because a job (crappy or not) is better than no job, but it's basically akin to saying "will suck d!ck for food."  While I'm happy to get a cheaper car, I'd rather it be cheaper because of no duty charged (i.e. Japanese cars built in the US) instead of buying a car built in Mexico with workers being paid ~$5/hour.

I, for one, will never buy a car manufactured in Mexico.  I was totally over my hatred for Ford, but this move definitely hurts my view of Ford again.

Trust me, if Subaru moved manufacturing to Mexico, my message would be the same.

investors are the ones to blame, they always go after more and more profits...so companies are forced to be creative on cost-cutting.

Offline blotter

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5008
  • Carma: +92/-128
  • Gender: Male
  • member
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2014 Taco
I just find it amazing how the world supports the perpetual lower pay/employment standards in other countries.  We continue to buy products manufactured in China/Mexico because they're 'cheaper', but in reality, their workers are the ones taking the hit.  I mean, it's great that someone in Mexico gets a job because a job (crappy or not) is better than no job, but it's basically akin to saying "will suck d!ck for food."  While I'm happy to get a cheaper car, I'd rather it be cheaper because of no duty charged (i.e. Japanese cars built in the US) instead of buying a car built in Mexico with workers being paid ~$5/hour.

I, for one, will never buy a car manufactured in Mexico.  I was totally over my hatred for Ford, but this move definitely hurts my view of Ford again.

Trust me, if Subaru moved manufacturing to Mexico, my message would be the same.

investors are the ones to blame, they always go after more and more profits...so companies are forced to be creative on cost-cutting.

 :iagree:


while it's great people are speaking their mind by buying a NA made car, but you gotta make sure you also don't buy their stock!   



---
all I can say is I'm glad my truck is made in Texas.

While some have tried to debate the quality... Ms Blotter's Fiat is a perfect reminder that made in Mexico doesn't have anywhere near the NA quality. 

Offline tpl

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 23908
  • Carma: +298/-675
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2022 Taos
Ford engine manufacture contract moves to Mexico, leaves Windsor in the dust.
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2014, 03:22:20 pm »
Mrs tpl's 2013 FIT turned out to be made in China. If there had been the option of paying more...maybe upto $1000 more for one built in Japan like the 2007 I would have done so.   Or, if Honda or anyone else offered the "Magic seat" in another small car we might have gone for that.
There is not always the choice of source country.


As it happened my Q5 was built in Germany but it could as easily have come from the Czech Republic but as they are both democratic European countries I guess that doesn't matter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline blotter

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5008
  • Carma: +92/-128
  • Gender: Male
  • member
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2014 Taco
Mrs tpl's 2013 FIT turned out to be made in China. If there had been the option of paying more...maybe upto $1000 more for one built in Japan like the 2007 I would have done so.   Or, if Honda or anyone else offered the "Magic seat" in another small car we might have gone for that.
There is not always the choice of source country.


As it happened my Q5 was built in Germany but it could as easily have come from the Czech Republic but as they are both democratic European countries I guess that doesn't matter.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


I thought the Chinese built Fits were supposed to be only for the Asian markets?


Isn't the Czech Republic somewhat Germany's Mexico?
Mexico is democratic...
but I believe both have low labour wages.

Offline Scarecrow

  • Auto Obsessed
  • ***
  • Posts: 928
  • Carma: +41/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Cars on the brain
    • View Profile
  • Cars: Mazda6, Mazda MX-5 Miata (sold), Shelby 427S/C Cobra, Triumph Tiger 750
I thought the Chinese built Fits were supposed to be only for the Asian markets?

IIRC, Honda Canada has been importing the Fit from China since Dec 2011.

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 75727
  • Carma: +1253/-7197
    • View Profile
  Not sure I would blame the provincial and federal governments for expecting some commitments from Ford in exchange for oodles and oodles of public, taxpayers' dollars either.

This.  And in a way, you have GM to blame for this.  Remember when GM was bailed out and they promised to maintain current production in Ont.?  Yet 2 years later, they announce the Camaro is leaving Canada.  At the time, the Camaro accounted for ~30% of the production there.  With the Camaro leaving 1000 people will be out of work IIRC.  The gov't was no impressed with this announcement.  Although GM claims they will meet their obligation.

We also saw the same thing from Chrysler.  Canada was willing to pony up the dough in exchange for promises and accountability.  Sergio wanted neither.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 06:30:22 pm by rrocket »
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 28596
  • Carma: +1376/-1726
  • Gender: Male
  • Ramblin' man
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2017 KTM DUKE 390, 2019 VW Jetta GLI 35th Anniversary
Some of the tone here smacks of racism. Plant assembly location isn't a good predictor of product quality. VW had some crap coming out of Germany and some very reliable stuff coming out of Mexico. Ford had excellent quality from the plant that produces the Fusion. It's no different with other manufacturers.

A new plant in any location tends to have higher than average assembly issues than established plants. The plants in the southern US that Nissan, Mercedes and BMW built all had issues, some had a lot of issues, until they gained a fair bit of experience.

Having said that, corporate welfare should be unconstitutional full stop. At the same time, we should never have free trade agreements with any country that doesn't have similar health, safety, environmental and wage structures and/or regulations.
On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H. L. Mencken

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 75727
  • Carma: +1253/-7197
    • View Profile
Some of the tone here smacks of racism. Plant assembly location isn't a good predictor of product quality. VW had some crap coming out of Germany and some very reliable stuff coming out of Mexico. Ford had excellent quality from the plant that produces the Fusion. It's no different with other manufacturers.

A new plant in any location tends to have higher than average assembly issues than established plants. The plants in the southern US that Nissan, Mercedes and BMW built all had issues, some had a lot of issues, until they gained a fair bit of experience.

Having said that, corporate welfare should be unconstitutional full stop. At the same time, we should never have free trade agreements with any country that doesn't have similar health, safety, environmental and wage structures and/or regulations.

Well that means we couldn't have free trade with the USA then.... ;D

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 28596
  • Carma: +1376/-1726
  • Gender: Male
  • Ramblin' man
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2017 KTM DUKE 390, 2019 VW Jetta GLI 35th Anniversary
Some of the tone here smacks of racism. Plant assembly location isn't a good predictor of product quality. VW had some crap coming out of Germany and some very reliable stuff coming out of Mexico. Ford had excellent quality from the plant that produces the Fusion. It's no different with other manufacturers.

A new plant in any location tends to have higher than average assembly issues than established plants. The plants in the southern US that Nissan, Mercedes and BMW built all had issues, some had a lot of issues, until they gained a fair bit of experience.

Having said that, corporate welfare should be unconstitutional full stop. At the same time, we should never have free trade agreements with any country that doesn't have similar health, safety, environmental and wage structures and/or regulations.

Well that means we couldn't have free trade with the USA then....

Fine by me.

Offline Snowman

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 38392
  • Carma: +702/-1347
  • Gender: Male
  • “It’s never crowded along the extra mile.”
    • View Profile
  • Cars: Cars: 2012 Audi TT-RS. 2011 Toyota Venza AWD.2004 Honda S2000 Bikes: Giant Defy Avdvanced 0. Giant Talon 29 "hardtail"
I just find it amazing how the world supports the perpetual lower pay/employment standards in other countries.  We continue to buy products manufactured in China/Mexico because they're 'cheaper', but in reality, their workers are the ones taking the hit.  I mean, it's great that someone in Mexico gets a job because a job (crappy or not) is better than no job, but it's basically akin to saying "will suck d!ck for food."  While I'm happy to get a cheaper car, I'd rather it be cheaper because of no duty charged (i.e. Japanese cars built in the US) instead of buying a car built in Mexico with workers being paid ~$5/hour.

I, for one, will never buy a car manufactured in Mexico.  I was totally over my hatred for Ford, but this move definitely hurts my view of Ford again.

Trust me, if Subaru moved manufacturing to Mexico, my message would be the same.

It's because most people are cheap whores and shop based on the lowest price. Just about every thread on this forum has a comment shocked about the price on the vehicle in the first 5 posts.

 :fiver: 95% of the consumers will never understand that.