Topic: First car, looking for advice on how to choose and specific model recommendation

[NewRider]

Hi there,
I am in the market for my first car, after a couple of days of googling i still have some questions.

Usage case :

The car will mainly be used to commute to work, gym, groceries etc... . I expect something like 12000 km/year. I decided  on a compact sedan , maybe normal or hatchback. As i am a fairy new driver safety features and reliability are important to me. After that i would like a low cost of ownership as well.

 So here are my questions:
1 - How old  should/can a used car be :

From my readings, the 3 - 4 years mark some kind of sweet spot for used car , as the car depreciation rate slows after the 4th year.  So i am planning for a car from 2010 at the oldest. 
Is there any important safety fear that i would be missing buying a car in that year range ?
is it more economical to go with a slightly older car ?

2 - Private sales vs dealer ship

It looks like by requesting the car-fax and inspecting the car at a reputable mechanic/dealership i should able to negate most risk of buying privately, is that correct ?
 is there something else i should do ?

3 - How much variation is there between model of the same car in terms of driving and handling behaviour  ?
What i am asking is that suppose i test-drive a 2012 corolla and like it, can i assume that i will also like the driving of all corolla in the same generations ?


4 - resale value for a second owner ?

As a general rule, does it make sense for a second owner to go for a car with less resale value ( since i mean for me paying less upfront) ? or is the importance of the resale value the same as for a first owner ?



As of now i test drove a 2009 corolla, a 2012 civic and i am planning to try a mazda 3 and a ford focus next.
The 2012 civic was clearly  a better drive than the corolla(should i try to give the newer corolla  ?) and they booth close in term or reliability and safety so i am leaning toward a civic.


the mazda 3 and the ford focus get mentioned a lot but  how reliable are those car ? any specific years-model people recommend i should try ?

Of course i am open to any suggestions

Sorry for the long list of questions and thanks for reading,

[tooscoops]

general rules i look at...

see when the cars had their updates/new metal... it used to be pretty standard that they went through a 6 year lifespan with a refresh at the three year mark. other than the occasional first year issues with some models (which you can look up), i like to get the oldest of the newest style to maximize the safety/entertainment features and the more modern amenities. it also makes the car seem newer for longer.

12km a year is quite low. so reliability and longevity should be a priority as opposed to fuel consumption (to a point) or resale. often times, the higher resale is a result of the improved reliability/longevity though.

we saw a big improvement in compact cars around 2010... after the market went for a crap, people started expecting more for less and the cars in the compact segment couldn't get by just on being cheap anymore, they actually had to be good. so that is a good era to be looking (as long as it fits in your budget)

the dealer thing... i work at a dealer, so i have different views than many. i say look at all of the cars available. whoever is selling the one you want, take a look. i rank my preferences new/used dealer>private>used lot. but price point can make those preferences change (if private is offering a significant price drop).

assumptions about used cars are fine to a point. you can assume that the cars will drive similarly for sure.. but still, ALWAYS drive the actual car you will be purchasing.


overall, you are looking at pretty safe bets model wise. find a clean unit, get it inspected, look at the carproof and pay a fair price.

[JohnnyMac]

Something you should definitely be considering when buying is how much insurance is.  In my experience there are certain models out there that are hugely expensive to insure compared to similar models.  This could very much so affect your decision.  You should also look at costs of tires and other consumables as you will inevitably need to buy these things.  I find used car shopping to be such a crap shoot and there's no way to eliminate risk fully, that being said the carfax and used vehicle inspections are a very good way of eliminating such risk, as well as researching reliability ratings for the cars you're interested in. 

[NewRider]

general rules i look at...

see when the cars had their updates/new metal... it used to be pretty standard that they went through a 6 year lifespan with a refresh at the three year mark. other than the occasional first year issues with some models (which you can look up), i like to get the oldest of the newest style to maximize the safety/entertainment features and the more modern amenities. it also makes the car seem newer for longer.

12km a year is quite low. so reliability and longevity should be a priority as opposed to fuel consumption (to a point) or resale. often times, the higher resale is a result of the improved reliability/longevity though.

we saw a big improvement in compact cars around 2010... after the market went for a crap, people started expecting more for less and the cars in the compact segment couldn't get by just on being cheap anymore, they actually had to be good. so that is a good era to be looking (as long as it fits in your budget)

the dealer thing... i work at a dealer, so i have different views than many. i say look at all of the cars available. whoever is selling the one you want, take a look. i rank my preferences new/used dealer>private>used lot. but price point can make those preferences change (if private is offering a significant price drop).

assumptions about used cars are fine to a point. you can assume that the cars will drive similarly for sure.. but still, ALWAYS drive the actual car you will be purchasing.


overall, you are looking at pretty safe bets model wise. find a clean unit, get it inspected, look at the carproof and pay a fair price.

A lot of good information , thanks.
I am not sure i understand what you meant by safe mets model wise . Are you say tha tll four lines (corrola,civic,mazda3 and focus) are good and there is not "bad choice" picking any of them ?

[NewRider]

Something you should definitely be considering when buying is how much insurance is.  In my experience there are certain models out there that are hugely expensive to insure compared to similar models.  This could very much so affect your decision.  You should also look at costs of tires and other consumables as you will inevitably need to buy these things.  I find used car shopping to be such a crap shoot and there's no way to eliminate risk fully, that being said the carfax and used vehicle inspections are a very good way of eliminating such risk, as well as researching reliability ratings for the cars you're interested in.

Good point on the insurance, i will try to get a couple of quotes.
For the cost of tires and other things, i am not sure how/where to check that/ My general feelings about those things was that by choosing a popular brang/make of car i should safe on that side

[tooscoops]

yeah, that's what i mean by that. corolla and civic, very safe bets... the mazda, solid, but generally good and the focus, it depends which generation, but the newer ones are well built cars.

depending on what you have to spend, not my favourite, but might also be worth a look would be jetta, elantra, cruze.

for a wildcard that won't garner any love here, a 2011-2014 chrysler 200 can get you a lot of car for not much cash. pretty solid for the most part and top safety pick plus. just get it looked at closely as they can be owned by cheap people who don't change oil, or go the other way and be driven by octogenarians to church on sundays.

[EV-Light]

The 2012 civic was clearly  a better drive than the corolla(should i try to give the newer corolla  ?) and they booth close in term or reliability and safety so i am leaning toward a civic.

the mazda 3 and the ford focus get mentioned a lot but  how reliable are those car ? any specific years-model people recommend i should try ?

Of course i am open to any suggestions

Sorry for the long list of questions and thanks for reading,

Earlier Focus had a known issue with the dual clutch transmission...you need to drive one to see if you like how it behaves - I particularly thought it was bad.

I'd also look at a Subaru Impreza - more utilitarian - and a VW Jetta...

[Noto]

As i am a fairy new driver safety features and reliability are important to me. After that i would like a low cost of ownership as well.

I love fairy drivers!

just teasing you.

I will always be a proponent of getting a Subaru Impreza for a lot of reasons.  First, AWD is a big bonus.  Second, they are among the safest of the compacts.  Third, resale is insanely high.  Fourth, insurance tends to be a bit lower (because of AWD and they're not stolen as often as the Civic - the Civic will likely have the highest cost of insurance).

I think the Ford Focus will be a good bet due to its depreciation - most will already be gone by that point.  I honestly would not recommend a 2009-2013 Corolla (and I own one).  A Civic may be a good purchase, but you tend to pay a lot for it because it has strong resale and then there's the issue of insurance.  I would NOT recommend a Mazda3 because of of your concerns re reliability.  They're not UNreliable, but they're not as solid as many others.

The Hyundai Elantra is probably a very good idea for you, too.  Insurance rates will be low, it'll have a lot of features, and they'll be cheaper.

JohnnyMac is also very correct re: Tires, etc.  He's referring to sizing:  15" tires are cheap.  16" are reasonable.  17" are getting expensive.  18" are REALLY pricey.  Most compacts will have small-ish wheels in base/mid-level trims (i.e. Corolla CE vs LE - the CE has 15", the CE has 16", and then there's the S trim that has 17").  They're only really beneficial for visual appeal and otherwise cost you a lot of money down the road.

I'm a personal injury lawyer - to me, safety is also important.  The IIHS (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/v/class-summary/small-cars) rates cars based on safety.  You should consider its opinions, but don't assume that a 2012 will be the same as a 2014 - there are MANY advances in each generation (not necessarily model year).  I'd say if you're buying anything between 2011-2013, they're all very safe based on the usual crash tests.  After that time, the 'small-offset' test became widespread and many compacts failed.  I would limit your search to 2011 vehicles or newer.

[rrocket]

Toyota Corolla.  Made in Canada and supremely reliable.

[2JDM]

Toyota Corolla.  Made in Canada and supremely reliable.

This. Also insurance on a Corolla is typically cheaper than a Civic simply due to the demographic for these vehicles.

[johngenx]

Insurance is going to be a major expense.  Personally, for a first car, I'd buy something in the $2500 range and forget having collision insurance.  Drive it for a few years to establish an insurance/driving history, sell it for about what you paid, and then consider something newer.

[Ron]

the mazda 3 and the ford focus get mentioned a lot but  how reliable are those car ? any specific years-model people recommend i should try ?

Of course i am open to any suggestions

Sorry for the long list of questions and thanks for reading,

Apart from a couple early model years the Mazda 3 is dead reliable, very comparable to Honda/Toyota. I have been driving Mazda's (Protégé & 3) for 10+ years and I have only had to do routine maintenance. See this website for reliability reports/comparisons from the vehicle owners themselves - http://www.truedelta.com/Mazda-Mazda3/reliability-170/vs-Civic-109 It is very informative.

Gas is a large operating cost and having driven Civics previously, the gas mileage would definitely be better with the Hondas. Though the newer Mazda models with the 'SkyActiv' engines may make that moot now. A good idea to check insurance cost also; I wouldn't be surprised if Civics are slightly higher on average due to their profile.

In my experience, and it may vary with location, for actually work, whether maintenance or repair, Honda/Mazda/Toyota/Ford are significantly cheaper than Volkswagen/Hyundai/Subaru etc. Simply phone a few dealers and mechanic shops to get an idea on costs for typically jobs.

Hope that helps and good luck!

[Noto]

In my experience, and it may vary with location, for actually work, whether maintenance or repair, Honda/Mazda/Toyota/Ford are significantly cheaper than Volkswagen/Hyundai/Subaru etc. Simply phone a few dealers and mechanic shops to get an idea on costs for typically jobs.

The maintenance on my Forester XT is no more expensive than on my Corolla.  Oil changes are the exact same price, and brakes have been about $10 more in the Fozzie (but the brake pads are far larger in the Fozzie).

...but as you say, if you go anywhere other than a dealership, most 'repairs' are similar in cost no matter what vehicle you have in a given class (i.e. Corolla vs Civic vs Cruze, etc) unless major parts are necessary for order.

[JohnnyMac]

Something you should definitely be considering when buying is how much insurance is.  In my experience there are certain models out there that are hugely expensive to insure compared to similar models.  This could very much so affect your decision.  You should also look at costs of tires and other consumables as you will inevitably need to buy these things.  I find used car shopping to be such a crap shoot and there's no way to eliminate risk fully, that being said the carfax and used vehicle inspections are a very good way of eliminating such risk, as well as researching reliability ratings for the cars you're interested in.

Good point on the insurance, i will try to get a couple of quotes.
For the cost of tires and other things, i am not sure how/where to check that/ My general feelings about those things was that by choosing a popular brang/make of car i should safe on that side

As Noto mention already, you need to look at tire size but I'd also look at if they are low profile.  Larger the size, more expensive it will be.  Low profile tires are more expensive and generally don't last as long as more traditional style tires.  You can price tires on specific models on all sorts of sites, include tirerack, canadiantire, costco, etc.  As far as other maintenance I'd be looking at how much oil changes are, some vehicles require specific oil filters/oils that are more expensive and have to look at how often you will need to change said oil, as oil change intervals depend on make and model.

I agree with most on here that a Subaru will offer a safe, lower insurance, reliable, generally have higher oil change intervals (8,000-10,000 kms) and fun to drive ride.  Downfalls are their interior and exterior styling isn't very good, and they will be a bit more expensive to buy.

[Noto]

I agree with most on here that a Subaru will offer a safe, lower insurance, reliable, generally have higher oil change intervals (8,000-10,000 kms) and fun to drive ride.  Downfalls are their interior and exterior styling isn't very good, and they will be a bit more expensive to buy.

Not much more than a Corolla or Civic...more, yes, but not much.  The value-added offsets the initial cost (depreciates at a similar rate).

[NewRider]

Thanks guys,   a lot of goods informations in here ,


I looked at the insurance rates of the main models (picked 2012 as reference years and middle trim) and most model are within 30 dollars/month from each others. So i dont think insurances would be a big factor. One thing i am noticing is that the mid size sedans are cheaper to insure than the compact

Insurance is going to be a major expense.  Personally, for a first car, I'd buy something in the $2500 range and forget having collision insurance.  Drive it for a few years to establish an insurance/driving history, sell it for about what you paid, and then consider something newer.

That's a great idea. Right now i am looking between 2900 to 3300 per year  for full coverage, depending on the model . Taking only the strict minimum as coverage saves me about 400 a year  on that (again all based on 2012 models).
I can't get a quote on very old model (TD website doesnt work for some reasons) and see if that would bring the price significantly down. I will look into it.

Anybody have any advices on paying less for insurances ?

Subaru :
I haven't tried this car yet and i am planning on doing so this weekend at a dealership close to my house. But
looking at the reviews, it seems to get some mixed reviews . The latest generations is good, but bside the 4WD it's seems to lag behind the other model in the same class... Am i missing something?  why are you guys recommending this model ? does the 4WD give real advantage on the snow/ice ?

So my next step now is go out and try some of the car that where mentioned here and go from there.
Again thanks for you help guys

[Ron]

Subaru :
I haven't tried this car yet and i am planning on doing so this weekend at a dealership close to my house. But
looking at the reviews, it seems to get some mixed reviews . The latest generations is good, but bside the 4WD it's seems to lag behind the other model in the same class... Am i missing something?  why are you guys recommending this model ? does the 4WD give real advantage on the snow/ice ?

So my next step now is go out and try some of the car that where mentioned here and go from there.
Again thanks for you help guys

Re Subaru - Every gathering of people, whether in-person or online, will have a collective set of biases; this forum is no different. Like you I don't see the appeal or value with them, that's after test driving their SUVs/wagons and talking to owners about costs. I'm sure AWD has an advantage in winter conditions. However, coming from the RWD generation through FWD and then today, I will say the number one priority for winter driving is winter tires, no question! RWD, FWD or AWD is secondary to that.

I agree, after collecting info and doing research, go out and test drive multiple vehicles, and select the best one for you.

[JohnnyMac]

Subaru :
I haven't tried this car yet and i am planning on doing so this weekend at a dealership close to my house. But
looking at the reviews, it seems to get some mixed reviews . The latest generations is good, but bside the 4WD it's seems to lag behind the other model in the same class... Am i missing something?  why are you guys recommending this model ? does the 4WD give real advantage on the snow/ice ?

So my next step now is go out and try some of the car that where mentioned here and go from there.
Again thanks for you help guys

Agreed, the Subaru doens't score well in some tests but it's usually because of fuel economy (AWD affects that) and interior exterior styling, if you read most reviews say they drive really well and reliability studies have shown Subaru to be near the top.  Plus they are always at the top of safety ratings.  I've test driven a number of Subaru's over the years and there's a lot of appeal there but we always end up with something else as interior is a big thing for us and Subaru is always near the bottom of that category.

Winter tires are a must on any vehicle and only rarely do you find times that you NEED AWD, and if you do indeed NEED AWD you should probably have stayed home.

Re Subaru - Every gathering of people, whether in-person or online, will have a collective set of biases; this forum is no different. Like you I don't see the appeal or value with them, that's after test driving their SUVs/wagons and talking to owners about costs. I'm sure AWD has an advantage in winter conditions. However, coming from the RWD generation through FWD and then today, I will say the number one priority for winter driving is winter tires, no question! RWD, FWD or AWD is secondary to that.

I agree, after collecting info and doing research, go out and test drive multiple vehicles, and select the best one for you.

[Noto]

I looked at the insurance rates of the main models (picked 2012 as reference years and middle trim) and most model are within 30 dollars/month from each others. So i dont think insurances would be a big factor.

Subaru :
it seems to get some mixed reviews . The latest generations is good, but bside the 4WD it's seems to lag behind the other model in the same class... Am i missing something?  why are you guys recommending this model ? does the 4WD give real advantage on the snow/ice ?

$30/month is huge!  $360 per YEAR! between similar cars!  I'd consider that quite significant.  I mean, if nothing else, that'll pay for your winter tires with rims within 3 years or so.

Subarus are what we call, 'quirky'.  They're not the most glamorous cars.  They're not the prettiest to look at.  ...but when it comes to all-weather reliable transportation, Subaru is a great choice.  The Elantra may be prettier and have more features as standard, and the Civic may be 'more' reliable (I doubt there's much of a difference), and the Corolla may be more economical in general, but none of them will handle as well in the winter.  They won't necessarily get stuck, but they won't necessarily be 'as good'.  Take that for what it's worth:

So what does "real advantage on the snow/ice" mean?  AWD will not help you stop appreciably better than a FWD car.  It WILL help you get started through an intersection, get out of a parking spot, and accelerate generally.  It will also help you when travelling at speed around a curve in the road if the stability control system is well calibrated.  This is where, in my opinion, Subarus shine.  They track straighter down the road when snow-covered, they don't understeer (i.e. keep moving forward when you want to turn) as much as a FWD car (but will understeer more than a RWD car).

In the end, if you're sticking around the city, AWD isn't necessary.  It's nice.  Winter Tires are more important than AWD, but having AWD AND Winter Tires is ideal.  the problem with buying a cheap car is that you won't want to pay for winter tires too because you're not sure how long the car will last.  On a 2011+, that's not so much an issue.

[tooscoops]

i'll get stoned here for saying it.. but i don't really think the subaru is the best option for you. for others, maybe.. but from what little i know of you, the awd is not a real advantage... the lack of styling is a negative... the added complications of the drivetrain are a negative... and the cost will be higher. as much as we all push subaru quite often, in this case, i don't think it is the right option.

i agree with noto about the insurance... while "within 30" could end up being only a few bucks... if it's at the extreme there. 30 bucks a month goes a long way in a car payment.